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Thread: Chester Hifi Show 2018

  1. #81
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by User211 View Post
    Respect, bro. Should shift some air - more than Tom's - and go lower. As I think Jerry was saying.
    Not necessarily lower .. my favourite Tannoy drivers are the 12in HPDs and 15in Golds .... the 12in HPDs need more grunt but in terms of specs go just as low as the 15in Golds ... in 12in Golds are very sweet but don't go as low as the 12in HPDs (not an issue in some rooms and most of the cabs they came in won't allow it anyway), while the ribbed cone on the 15in HPDs not only needs more power but isn't capable of the subtlety of the 15in Gold (or 12in HPD), and they don't really go any lower than either even in a big box.

    All in all the 12in HPD is my preferred compromise between it and the 15in Gold (which I owned for about 5-6 years in multiple cabs including Lancasters, GRF rectangular horns, Lockwoods and Autographs) as while it doesn't shift as much air, it goes just as low (in the right cab) and is capable of slightly more more subtlety - perfect for my sort of music. The 15in Gold does give you a bit more of that giant room filling Tannoy sound but not quite the nuance I think mainly because it's pushed very high at the crossover point (that's a big cone to be doing 1khz - a couple of octaves above middle C) so slightly less clarity for the classical stuff - but potentially not so much of an issue depending on your musical choices.

    In short Jerry's observations are probably spot on. I can see why the 15in Gold would be preferred by some, and I'm very happy with the 12in HPD.

    Having said all that when Kedar came round I stuck a Sheffield Labs Wagner recording on (Siegfried Funeral Music) which has the most dynamic range I've ever heard on an LP, and we really rocked the place. Not something I do that often tbh.

    For me the critical thing about Tannoys is to get the crossover right. When you describe mine as a one-off I think that's because so few people have really gone to town on the crossover - Paul did a fantastic job on mine indeed I would say it's the biggest single upgrade I've ever made to my system.

  2. #82
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Bristol

    Posts: 6,843
    I'm Justin.

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    But really it is though. I don't mean that in a competitive "my speakers are better than yours" sense, but in a "which parameters do I value the most, given I can't have everything, even if I strive to".

    But then again subjective assessments of ability can't really be put down on top trumps fact cards. Only objective technical measurements can, and only if done by one central technical body, as the results would vary when testing the same speakers otherwise.

    Whatever. Bass and bass extension is not everyone's priority. It is high on mine, though.
    Last edited by User211; 25-04-2018 at 22:40.

  3. #83
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Bristol

    Posts: 6,843
    I'm Justin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Not necessarily
    The 12 inch drivers must be capable of more excursion than the 15 inch ones to manage similar bass response given the same (reasonable) cab size. At least that would be my understanding.

  4. #84
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    For me the critical thing about Tannoys is to get the crossover right. When you describe mine as a one-off I think that's because so few people have really gone to town on the crossover...
    Absolutely. I simply couldn't have lived with mine with their stock crossovers, as they sounded rather tubby and old-fashioned - not my thing at all. However, underneath all that, I could hear their potential, which thankfully the crossovers I went to town on cured and subsequently released!

    I understand where you're coming from with MGs and HPDs, but I've yet to hear a pair of HPDs that sound as naturally open and 'effortless' as the equivalent sized MGs, for example when comparing my Lockwoods with, say, a pair of current Canterburys. The Lockwoods just sound sweeter, 'free-er' (less congested), and also strangely 'bigger', too!

    And the same thing has happened any time I've assessed that situation, by carrying out similar comparisons. Therefore, generally, I prefer the sound of MGs, especially with valves, but your HPDs may change my opinion

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #85
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by User211 View Post
    The 12 inch drivers must be capable of more excursion than the 15 inch ones to manage similar bass response given the same (reasonable) cab size. At least that would be my understanding.
    There are quite a few changes to the HPDs (that require higher power to drive them). The suspension was completely redesigned (replacing the old fabric binding with rubber which does indeed have more excursion) and the cone reinforced by cardboard folds that aren't on the Monitor Gold.

  6. #86
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by User211 View Post
    Whatever. Bass and bass extension is not everyone's priority. It is high on mine, though.
    And mine, but not as much as SCALE, together with the ability to portray that effect naturally and effortlessly with music, which for me only the biggest drivers can achieve in suitable sized cabinets, and when driven by an appropriate amp. Wide baffles, in my experience, also help in that respect.

    A single, fat 15-incher slapped onto the front of a speaker, in a suitably wide baffle, for me, always sounds 'bigger', and capable of greater scale, than any amount (within reason) of smaller drivers positioned elsewhere on a much narrower cabinet. The best speakers for me, are generally always those that look the most visually imposing!

    Anything designed with WAF in mind, is quite simply fatally compromised in comparison - and will sound it!

    I hate listening to speakers that are obviously trying hard to 'impress', or that are clearly capable of producing deep bass (as in going very low, frequency-wise) but don't do the scale/slam thing properly. It's the latter, with the right music, that puts a big grin on my chops, not necessarily the former.

    Let's face it, so much music benefits from being reproduced with proper scale and authority, although not necessarily very low bass (unless one is listening to organ music), so that it has the correct amount of weight and texture, and sounds believable and real, as opposed to a poor and rather 'weedy' facsimile of such.

    Therefore, in my view, the ability of a system (and speakers) to reproduce genuine scale, in an effortless way, is one of the things most important to accurate music reproduction.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #87
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    There were at least three variants of 12" Monitor Gold. One of which had identical foam (Tannoplas) cone surrounds to the 12" HPD.

    Also, rubber roll surrounds were used at one time, as were pleated doped surrounds, which were not fabric (as in cloth), but an integrated part of the paper cone material.

    The difference in sensitivity between the Gold and HPD 12" drivers is small, as the 'Girdacoustic' paper ribs on the rear of the HPD cone do not weigh much.

  8. #88
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Absolutely. I simply couldn't have lived with mine with their stock crossovers, as they sounded rather tubby and old-fashioned - not my thing at all. However, underneath all that, I could hear their potential, which thankfully the crossovers I went to town on cured and subsequently released!

    I understand where you're coming from with MGs and HPDs, but I've yet to hear a pair of HPDs that sound as naturally open and 'effortless' as the equivalent sized MGs, for example when comparing my Lockwoods with, say, a pair of current Canterburys. The Lockwoods just sound sweeter, and also strangely 'bigger', too!

    And the same thing has happened any time I've assessed that situation, by carrying out a similar comparison. Therefore, generally, I prefer the sound of MGs, especially with valves, but your HPDs may change my opinion

    Marco.
    It's a very tough call they both have relative strengths and weaknesses ('relative' being the important word). I have no criticisms at all of the 15in MGs in fact I think they are fantastic. You are right about the effortlessness .. it's probably a trade-off between that effortlessness (which the 12in HPDs have, but not to the same extent), and a smidgeon more clarity.

    Oh and I totally agree with you on the scale thing. That's what these are all about.

  9. #89
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Yeah Tom, you're probably right.

    Would it be correct to say that 15" MGs have lighter, or perhaps 'faster reacting' cones, than those used on 15" HPDs (the latter being stiffer, and possibly also a little heavier, in order to handle more power)? It's something I've always wondered, and if so, that could have a bearing on matters.

    The other thing that struck me recently (at Cooky, Frank's, place when I visited him with Macca) was the significant difference in the size of magnets used on 15" HPDs, compared with their MG counterparts, as those of the latter are considerably bigger, making the difference in the overall weight between the drivers rather obvious.

    Might that also be influencing matters too, the bigger magnets on the MGs, that is, not the heavier overall weight of the drivers themselves?

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #90
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: gone

    Posts: 11,519
    I'm gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    In short Jerry's observations are probably spot on..
    Of course!

    You just have to listen to them. They are voiced and perform quite differently. Different speakers - different cones, cabs and xovers; nothing in common at all! - and they sound it. No surprise, really.
    Am I the only one here who has heard both Tom's and Marco's modded Tannoys?
    .

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