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Thread: Mind gymnastics

  1. #1
    Join Date: May 2010

    Location: Vancouver, Canada

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    I'm Alex.

    Question Mind gymnastics

    OK, here is some mental gymnastics for you:

    Considering that the only purpose of placing a vinyl disc onto a platter that is spinning at 33/4 rotations per minute is to agitate the cantilever whose motions generate electrical signal inside the body of a cartridge, wouldn't it be better if we'd design a sophisticated robotic hand to instigate such motions?

    Instead of the blueprint of the recording being stored inside the microgrooves, we could store the blueprint digitally. After all, the vinyl blueprint is merely telling the cantilever when and how to move. Once we agitate the cantilever to move according to the specs, its motion will result in electrical signal which is then transmitted to the phono preamp etc. etc.

    The advantage of this hypothetical solution is that we would completely eliminate the relatively brittle signal carrier -- vinyl disc. No wear and tear anymore. And the robotic hand movement will be analog, thus avoiding issues with digital conversion (DAC).

    Best of both worlds? But is it doable? Is there an engineering hero who can walk on water and part the red sea and make such an amazing little robot?
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  2. #2
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: The Black Country

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    I'm Alan.

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    Seems like what you are talking about is a 'reverse cartridge', this already exists in the shape of a vinyl cutting head.

    The problem would be coupling the two together. However with the limitations of the vinyl medium out of the way you could possibly dispense with the need for RIAA correction and excite the cartridge with a flat response.

  3. #3
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

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    I'm Geoff.

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    Where is the information stored that would agitate this robotic hand?

  4. #4
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by walpurgis View Post
    Where is the information stored that would agitate this robotic hand?
    Digitally, according to the o/p.

    Which begs some questions...
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  5. #5
    Join Date: Apr 2012

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    The awkwardness of round flat records could be avoided, so could the complexity of two channels requiring lateral groove modulations. Simply modulating vertically for one signal and keeping the info on the exterior of a rotating cylinder instead of a disc would ease the situation.

    I believe work has been progessing to evolve such an advanced design.


  6. #6
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    Eliminating the vinyl disc sounds appealing. Then the device which traces the grooves - the stylus - could be eliminated too. The idea is so appealing that Philips and Sony invented the CD player. Since then, the optical disc and laser have been eliminated too.
    Thoughts that went through my mind as well

  7. #7
    Join Date: May 2010

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    I'm Alex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by walpurgis View Post
    The awkwardness of round flat records could be avoided, so could the complexity of two channels requiring lateral groove modulations. Simply modulating vertically for one signal and keeping the info on the exterior of a rotating cylinder instead of a disc would ease the situation.

    I believe work has been progessing to evolve such an advanced design.

    Back to the future!
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  8. #8
    Join Date: May 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    Eliminating the vinyl disc sounds appealing. Then the device which traces the grooves - the stylus - could be eliminated too. The idea is so appealing that Philips and Sony invented the CD player. Since then, the optical disc and laser have been eliminated too.
    Part of my daily job is related to machine learning. Given some messy entangled data set, it is apparently possible to let the machine at it, and sit back and watch what is the machine going to 'learn' from the alphabet soup you're feeding it. We're talking huge quantities of data, something that even the most intelligent humans cannot possibly grok.

    To me, recorded music is this gigantic cloud of 'alphabet soup', a huge mass of illegible information, the somehow gets distilled into physical microgrooves. Or sampled into a digital file.

    But the sampled file is just the minuscule tip of the iceberg, and the vast majority of the 'alphabet soup' gets willfully ignored in the process of sampling. But with the new machine learning technology, maybe we are getting to the point where the entire 'alphabet soup' gets ingested and fully digested by the machines. In that case, a machine could actually fully reverse-engineer EVERYTHING that's been stored in the microgrooves.

    At that point, the information that's been successfully processed by the machine could be used to drive the super-precision tiny robotic hand which will vibrate and generate electrical signal. That would be vastly different from the laser beam reading dots on a spinning disc.

    Daydreaming on a cloudy Wednesday morning...
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by magiccarpetride View Post
    Part of my daily job is related to machine learning. Given some messy entangled data set, it is apparently possible to let the machine at it, and sit back and watch what is the machine going to 'learn' from the alphabet soup you're feeding it. We're talking huge quantities of data, something that even the most intelligent humans cannot possibly grok.

    To me, recorded music is this gigantic cloud of 'alphabet soup', a huge mass of illegible information, the somehow gets distilled into physical microgrooves. Or sampled into a digital file.

    But the sampled file is just the minuscule tip of the iceberg, and the vast majority of the 'alphabet soup' gets willfully ignored in the process of sampling. But with the new machine learning technology, maybe we are getting to the point where the entire 'alphabet soup' gets ingested and fully digested by the machines. In that case, a machine could actually fully reverse-engineer EVERYTHING that's been stored in the microgrooves.

    At that point, the information that's been successfully processed by the machine could be used to drive the super-precision tiny robotic hand which will vibrate and generate electrical signal. That would be vastly different from the laser beam reading dots on a spinning disc.

    Daydreaming on a cloudy Wednesday morning...
    All your theories seem to be based on a basic misunderstanding of what a 'music signal' actually is and a complete lack of knowledge as to how it is reproduced. Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, it isn't meant to be. A sound recording is a very simple set of data. That's why Edison's cylinder worked.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  10. #10
    Join Date: May 2010

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    I'm Alex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    All your theories seem to be based on a basic misunderstanding of what a 'music signal' actually is and a complete lack of knowledge as to how it is reproduced. Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, it isn't meant to be. A sound recording is a very simple set of data. That's why Edison's cylinder worked.
    Interesting. But if it is indeed that simple, why so much discrepancy between different players? You'd expect that a simple thing produces predictable, easily reproducible output?
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

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