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Thread: Good analog and good digital converge?

  1. #11
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

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    I'm James.

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    Martin I think your theory of what makes analogue music sound pleasant is just your theory. The elephant In the room you always ignore is simply analogue music sounds better because the ear has evolved to listen this way and not to reconstructed mathematical square waves.

  2. #12
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Cheshire, UK

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    I'm Clive.

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    My main vinyl setup does not sound that different to good digital. Where digital tends to striggle is around stage depth. I don't have the vinyl euphony that some speak of. I'm sure such euphony exists but it is a feature of kit with poorly controlled resonances. Ultimately the best of digital and the best of vinyl converge.

    Characterising vinyl as euphonic is like saying valve amps sound warm and cuddly. It can be the case but needn't be and often isn't.
    TT 1 Trans-Fi Salvation with magnetic bearing + Trans-Fi Terminator T3Pro + London Reference / Transfiguration Spirit III
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    Bass Amp & DSP Behringer iNuke NU3000DSP
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    Speakers 2 MarkaudioSota Viotti One

  3. #13
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

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    I'm Tom.

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    What is this 1985? People still stunned by how clean and modern that new Dire Straits album sounds in the hifi shop? Why can't I get my mouldy old Garrard SP25 to sound like that? Give me one of those Compact Disk players right away!

    Anyway ....

    Some really good points above. I have a system in my study that basically replicates that speakers-up-on-top-of-bookcases (because there was no room for fancy stands), emotionally satisfying but far from hifi vinyl sound I had in my bedroom (I had to fit my piano and my guitars in there, as well as somewhere to sit and write essays longhand) back in the early 80s. The psycho-acoustic effect related to memory is powerful - I can hardly listen to Bowie or Dylan or Neil Young on my main system, it sounds totally wrong to hear all that stuff going on in the studio. But with badly spaced speakers and a basic cartridge, it delivers emotionally what it (for me) is supposed to, and takes me back to the past as reliably as Proust's madeleines.

    On the other hand I also agree that the better a vinyl system, gets the closer it comes to fixing the things CD was supposed to fix (pops, clicks, groove hiss, mistracking and so on). But there is still a divergence. Vinyl still does something that sounds better to my ears at least (if not to an oscilloscope). And both are a very difficult to take to the ultimate and I guess what the ultimate is is not something objective by any stretch.

    I was doing some thinking lately about digital and analogue and it seemed to me that in a lot of ways, DAC choice is like choosing a cartridge - you go for your preferences, which are often unconscious and certainly generally un-articulated: whatever your preferences - tipped up treble to hear those cymbals, explosive bass, a pipe and slippers, laid back presentation, ultra detail, instruments forward in the mix - you pick one that combines what you like, even possibly one tailored to the musical genres you like. (And I don't think this has that much to do with DAC chips and what happens in the digital domain, it seems clear to me from my experience that the crucial element in a DAC's sound is the output stage).

    If that's the case then certainly wouldn't be beyond the powers of the unconscious mind (let alone the conscious one) for a hifi nut to be working towards convergence in sound between their digital and their analogue source components - indeed there's even benefit in having similar gain levels. It stands to reason that if you ended up with vinyl and digital that sounded different, then one of them would clearly be deemed to be 'wrong'! And so we are back at psycho-acoustics.
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Pre EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 / Ortofon 309 Limited tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Ortofon SPU Royal N + Shure M3D Jico stylus; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0 retipped by Ana Mighty Sound bamboo cantilever, Spirit '78' 3.0 conical from Ana, also vintage GE VRII, Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78, switchable in from tape loop; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily modded AN Kit DAC + Mutec MC3+USB.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Duncan 'Tuberhunter' 200w class D; preamp - Pass DCB1; Vinyl: Garrard 401 with AT1503 tonearm and vintage SPU-GE; SUTs - Ortofon 2-15k & Bob's Devices; Phono Stage: Schiit Mani; Digital - Trichord Genesis III CDP + Arcam rBlink; Schiit Multibit DAC.

  4. #14
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 3,584
    I'm James.

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    I agree with the premis that the best digital and the best vinyl do converge although they are still different.

    Even though I am obviously a massive vinyl fan I do concede that I have heard digital do things even the best vinyl cannot achieve. In fact I would say if the progress I have heard with digital goes any further we are entering an acoustic experience unlike anything I have heard before. Give digital development another 10 years and it will sound remarkable and vinyl will sound limited by its technical parameters.

  5. #15
    Join Date: Oct 2008

    Location: Glasgowshire

    Posts: 6,566
    I'm availableforweddingsAndBarmitzvas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magiccarpetride View Post
    I am using Logitech Squeezebox Touch for digital. Compared to Systemdek with Jelco 750E 10" tonearm/Ortofon OM20/iFi Micro iPhono combo, Squeezebox Touch sounds nearly identical.

    Go figure...
    As fantastic the Touch is (absolutly loved mine at the time)..theres your problem. You can do better.
    Digital in my ‘second’ system is a Logitech Transporter...and it’s WAY better than the Touch.
    My first foray into streaming was a Slimserver branded SB3 and so, so happy for the Journey. (Look over the old squeezebox forums, I was there back in the Day)
    Transporters as good as it gets to 24/96...but things move on.

    For the record, I have a pretty decent vinyl system and its as good as my digital...just presented in a different way.
    I enjoy both.

    Alex,
    Been seeing your posts for a number of years now...you’ve still not sorted your stuff out yet...I’m surprised man?
    Last edited by Gazjam; 06-04-2018 at 20:53.
    I have hifi n stuff.


  6. #16
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 42,966
    I'm Grant.

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    You relegated the transporter? I'm surprised
    Regards,
    Grant ....

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
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  7. #17
    Join Date: May 2010

    Location: Vancouver, Canada

    Posts: 2,076
    I'm Alex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazjam View Post
    As fantastic the Touch is (absolutly loved mine at the time)..theres your problem. You can do better.
    Digital in my ‘second’ system is a Logitech Transporter...first foray into streaming was a Slimserver branded SB3 and so, so happy for the Journey. (Look over the old squeezebox forums, I was there back in the Day)
    Transporters as good as it gets to 24/96...but things move on.

    For the record, I have a pretty decent vinyl system and its as good as my digital...just presented in a different way.
    I enjoy both.

    Alex,
    Been seeing your posts for a number if years now...you’ve still not sorted your stuff out yet...surprised man.
    Show me a person who is firmly convinced that they've sorted their stuff, and I'll show you a charlatan.
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  8. #18
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

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    I'm Geoff.

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    I must be a charlatan then!

  9. #19
    Join Date: Oct 2008

    Location: Glasgowshire

    Posts: 6,566
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    Quote Originally Posted by magiccarpetride View Post
    Show me a person who is firmly convinced that they've sorted their stuff, and I'll show you a charlatan.
    No...not so much.
    Wasn’t being confrontstional, but some of us music lovers have actually got there?
    I have hifi n stuff.


  10. #20
    Join Date: Oct 2008

    Location: Glasgowshire

    Posts: 6,566
    I'm availableforweddingsAndBarmitzvas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    You relegated the transporter? I'm surprised
    The new Dac running as a Roon endpoint blows it into the weeds Grant.
    I have hifi n stuff.


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