Good analog and good digital converge?

[magiccarpetride]

Last year I switched from listening to digitally sourced music to listening to analog sources (vinyl). I made a switch out of curiosity, after reading how many people claim that vinyl beats digital. To be honest, I was expecting that vinyl playback will end up being quaint, a little bit nostalgic, but nowhere near as good as proper digital setup.

Much to my surprise, my vinyl rig delivered sound that was in no way lagging behind the digital reproduction. Then, after I got accustomed to vinyl, I started doing side-by-side comparisons. Again, much to my surprise, I found that often times vinyl sounded better (or, preferable) to my ears. I became a vinyl aficionado after experiencing that difference.

So I started slowly working on improving my turntable etc. Fast forward to the present time, and I now think I have a turntable setup that is better than what I had last year. I've invested in a better phono, better tonearm, better cabling, replaced spherical stylus with nude elliptical, tweaked my turntable, the whole nine yards.

So I decided to do side-by-side comparison with the digital again. I was now expecting that my new analog front end will absolutely blow the digital out of the water.

Much to my shock, that didn't happen! As a matter of fact, now my analog and my digital playback sound very, very similar. It's as if the gap, that I experienced last year, has all but closed.

So my conclusion is that as you keep improving your analog front end, you are approximating the sound of a good digital front end. This, to me, means that a good hi fi system (regardless of whether it's analog or digital) is actually approaching the sound one can find on the master tape.

Has anyone else experienced this interesting convergence?

[Macca]

Yes, so I gave up on vinyl and bought all my vinyl favourites on CD instead. It's cheaper ( a replacement stylus for my cart is £240!) and less hassle.

But...

Since being all digital for about a year now I've a hankering to get the TT up and running again. The CD versions of the vinyl are not the same. Now don't get me wrong, every musician I have ever met who has recorded in the studio, reckons digital sounds more like what they heard in the studio when listening to playback. To a man. And my limited experience in studios leads me to the same conclusion.

Now it may be I am just used to listening to these recordings on vinyl. Some of them I have had for 30 years and played hundreds of times (Zep, Hendrix, Clapton, Steely Dan, The Cult, Zappa, etc). And I know that no matter what I do with the digital source those albums will never sound like they do on vinyl. (Yes, I know you can get software that will emulate vinyl and I've not tried it but I have my doubts that it will cut it).

The crazy thing about vinyl is that the limitations of the 1950s technology,quite by accident, have a psycho-acoustic effect. It's like they tailored vinyl to sound good (except they didn't). Mono bass, benign distortion, arm and cart resonances actually enhance the sound from the listener's point of view, adding a euphoric quality and a presence to the sound that is not on the original recording, but makes it all sound so much more real and present. There's not really any getting away from it.

Now I know some people will say that it isn't those things at all that make vinyl sound better, it's a simple matter of 'analogue purity.' But that argument falls down in so many places I can't take it seriously anymore. It's really all about psycho-acoustics, folks.

[magiccarpetride]

Yes, so I gave up on vinyl and bought all my vinyl favourites on CD instead. It's cheaper ( a replacement stylus for my cart is £240!) and less hassle.

But...

Since being all digital for about a year now I've a hankering to get the TT up and running again. The CD versions of the vinyl are not the same. Now don't get me wrong, every musician I have ever met who has recorded in the studio, reckons digital sounds more like what they heard in the studio when listening to playback. To a man. And my limited experience in studios leads me to the same conclusion.

Now it may be I am just used to listening to these recordings on vinyl. Some of them I have had for 30 years and played hundreds of times (Zep, Hendrix, Clapton, Steely Dan, The Cult, Zappa, etc). And I know that no matter what I do with the digital source those albums will never sound like they do on vinyl. (Yes, I know you can get software that will emulate vinyl and I've not tried it but I have my doubts that it will cut it).

The crazy thing about vinyl is that the limitations of the 1950s technology,quite by accident, have a psycho-acoustic effect. It's like they tailored vinyl to sound good (except they didn't). Mono bass, benign distortion, arm and cart resonances actually enhance the sound from the listener's point of view, adding a euphoric quality and a presence to the sound that is not on the original recording, but makes it all sound so much more real and present. There's not really any getting away from it.

Now I know some people will say that it isn't those things at all that make vinyl sound better, it's a simple matter of 'analogue purity.' But that argument falls down in so many places I can't take it seriously anymore. It's really all about psycho-acoustics, folks.

You may be on to something there, Mr. Drunken Moderator. But here is what's curious to me:

During my first iteration with vinyl, I was smitten by these 'psycho-acoustics' artifacts, as you call them. Yes, I can now see how there was some interesting euphonic happening during vinyl playback.

But now, that I have improved my tonearm, stylus, cabling, plinth, that euphonic has all but disappeared. Obviously a better tonearm minimizes resonances, which results in a more 'digital' sound. So the irony may be that the better a turntable setup is, the less 'vinyl' the sound gets.

Or am I completely off my rocker here?

[Macca]

You may be on to something there, Mr. Drunken Moderator. But here is what's curious to me:

During my first iteration with vinyl, I was smitten by these 'psycho-acoustics' artifacts, as you call them. Yes, I can now see how there was some interesting euphonic happening during vinyl playback.

But now, that I have improved my tonearm, stylus, cabling, plinth, that euphonic has all but disappeared. Obviously a better tonearm minimizes resonances, which results in a more 'digital' sound. So the irony may be that the better a turntable setup is, the less 'vinyl' the sound gets.

Or am I completely off my rocker here?

No, that's exactly what I found going from a Nagaoka MP11 to an MP50 (which is arguably the best MM cart you can buy). Less euphoric, more like digital. To an extent, the baby went out with the bathwater.

I had a listen to Marco's SL1200 when he had some fancy Ortofon MC on it and that was the same. So close to his CD player in character it was uncanny. I didn't see the point. When he changed it to a fancy Denon, then you could hear why vinyl is worth the bother.

[magiccarpetride]

No, that's exactly what I found going from a Nagaoka MP11 to an MP50 (which is arguably the best MM cart you can buy). Less euphoric, more like digital. To an extent, the baby went out with the bathwater.

I had a listen to Marco's SL1200 when he had some fancy Ortofon MC on it and that was the same. So close to his CD player in character it was uncanny. I didn't see the point. When he changed it to a fancy Denon, then you could hear why vinyl is worth the bother.

Yeah, I now have a hunch if I go back to Denon that, on my new Jelco tonearm, it's going to restore that 'vinyl euphoria' which introduces some resonances etc. that make vinyl playback so different from digital. But right now, with Ortofon OM20, it's near indistinguishable in character from digital.

[paulf-2007]

No, that's exactly what I found going from a Nagaoka MP11 to an MP50 (which is arguably the best MM cart you can buy). Less euphoric, more like digital. To an extent, the baby went out with the bathwater.

I had a listen to Marco's SL1200 when he had some fancy Ortofon MC on it and that was the same. So close to his CD player in character it was uncanny. I didn't see the point. When he changed it to a fancy Denon, then you could hear why vinyl is worth the bother.

When I said my vinyl and digital were much the same, people were saying my vinyl set up wasn't all that good. Well up yours to those people, my vinyl set up is the dogs danglies

[Svend N]

The crazy thing about vinyl is that the limitations of the 1950s technology,quite by accident, have a psycho-acoustic effect. It's like they tailored vinyl to sound good (except they didn't). Mono bass, benign distortion, arm and cart resonances actually enhance the sound from the listener's point of view, adding a euphoric quality and a presence to the sound that is not on the original recording, but makes it all sound so much more real and present. There's not really any getting away from it.

Now I know some people will say that it isn't those things at all that make vinyl sound better, it's a simple matter of 'analogue purity.' But that argument falls down in so many places I can't take it seriously anymore. It's really all about psycho-acoustics, folks.

Interesting comment Martin, and those re. some TTs sounding like digital. I've been contemplating the next steps in tweaking my Heybrook TT2, and want to attack some possible sources of resonance (bottom plate, plinth, sub-chassis, etc.), but my fear is that I will go too far and make this wonderful deck sound too much like my CD player (which sounds outstanding, BTW, but not what I want my Heybrook to sound like). Oh well, at least the mods will be reversible, so if I don't like what I hear I can always revert to the way it was.

I think you guys are all bang-on re. the distortions in vinyl are actually what give it its unique character. Gotta love it, warts and all.

Good thread, this.

Best,
Svend

[Jimbo]

Martin I think your theory of what makes analogue music sound pleasant is just your theory. The elephant In the room you always ignore is simply analogue music sounds better because the ear has evolved to listen this way and not to reconstructed mathematical square waves.

[Macca]

Martin I think your theory of what makes analogue music sound pleasant is just your theory. The elephant In the room you always ignore is simply analogue music sounds better because the ear has evolved to listen this way and not to reconstructed mathematical square waves.

But when the vinyl is cut it goes through a digital/analogue convertor? And if the recording was made on a digital recorder to begin with? The analohue purity is ruined before it even gets to you.

Now if we talk recordings and records cut completely pre digital (and even pre-solid state) then yes, I agree they have something a 'perfect' digital recording does not have. But we are well into the realms of subjectivism and in operational terms, multiple possibilities of cause there. Maybe that is the proof of the analogue purity theory. I'm guessing not, I may be wrong.

But if you want to be truly purist analogue it is reel to reel you want, not vinyl

[Gazjam]

But when the vinyl is cut it goes through a digital/analogue convertor? And if the recording was made on a digital recorder to begin with? The analohue purity is ruined before it even gets to you.

Now if we talk recordings and records cut completely pre digital (and even pre-solid state) then yes, I agree they have something a 'perfect' digital recording does not have. But we are well into the realms of subjectivism and in operational terms, multiple possibilities of cause there. Maybe that is the proof of the analogue purity theory. I'm guessing not, I may be wrong.

But if you want to be truly purist analogue it is reel to reel you want, not vinyl

A perspective?

Turn up at a mates gaffe slightly worse for wear after a night out and He has a good hifi system.
A GOOD hifi system?
In our terms...I say enjoy!

* What if a random stranger has a meticulously preserved (shitty format) cassette collection...and a mint condition Nakamichi Dragon?
* Another random stranger might have a 301?...another a Gyro?

Only thing that matters (I fink) is wot hits our ears “in the context we hear it”?
Absolute quality will always triumph, always, but we all remember that...special...night where the Music was magic.

Hifi..who cares!!