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  1. #21
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yomanze View Post
    My system is very 'open and alive' at extremely low volumes, but I guess I like it most when it's turned up to around the 9 o'clock mark.
    Same here, on both counts! Although, in terms of the latter, perhaps slightly higher around the 10 o'clock mark.

    If it doesn't sound very 'open and alive' at low volumes, then some form of less than ideal combination of components (particularly the amplifier/speaker relationship), and how they interact with the room, is the likely issue.

    I would also say that there is usually a 'sweet spot' for listening, in terms of volume level, where the sound 'clicks into focus', but that's quite different from the sound being lacklustre or musically un-involving at low volume levels.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  2. #22
    Join Date: Jul 2016

    Location: Ferndown, Dorset, UK

    Posts: 248
    I'm Brook.

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    I am not the most technical of people so I can't explain the reasoning behind this, but the volume knob on my phono pre is supplemented by an adjustable gain knob, which is invaluable in getting the volume just so for a particular record, so for example I might have the gain set at full with the volume knob at about 8 o'clock for one & the gain very low with the volume knob nearer 3 o'clock for another. As I say I don't know why this is so but it works, as was demonstrated successfully at a bake off last weekend.

  3. #23
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 1,064
    I'm Mike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    You point Simon to what are also my concerns over this concept.


    I fundamentally disagree with much of your post 10 Mike, dynamics have absolutely no dependence on the volume control or its position, and if amplifiers and speakers are designed well enough to reproduce dynamic range, and are working within their designed limits, they will have a minimal effect on perceived dynamic range.
    Why? I was addressing the o.p., who was concerned about the 'o'clock' of his vol. control to achieve lift-off, as it were. You say 'well-matched system', and I agree (up to a point), but simple vol. control level comparison really doesn't hold water with myriad collections of kit to consider.

    Marco mentioned valves being better able to dynamically resolve at lower levels, and this is what I've found. Also, the ESLs resolve better at lower levels than moving coil speakers I've had. Then again, it also depends upon your intake of recreational pleasures as to how you judge adequate dynamic levels. Feedback (or lack of it), he mentioned, may well be a salient factor here..

    Some kit, and I'd guess mainly s/s, does need a bit of welly to get things jumping. Whether that's simply because they're not properly matched I've no idea.

    I'm a bit Mutt & Jeff, but if I can listen at sufficient levels to float my boat and not have 'er indoors, who has 20/20 hearing, mention that it's too loud, something is gelling there ! My E.A.R. volume control level? I really don't care ! Totally variable depending on input and other things; maybe 10 o.clock to 2 o'clock. This is at variance to the Naim I had before with identical sources.

  4. #24
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Reed View Post
    Marco mentioned valves being better able to dynamically resolve at lower levels, and this is what I've found. Also, the ESLs resolve better at lower levels than moving coil speakers I've had.
    Yup, a good (well-designed) valve amp combined with your electrostatics, which is able to drive them properly, will produce exactly the effect you describe, and do it in such an effortless way, alluding most SS gear.

    Neither the SS or valve approach to amplifier design is perfect (as both have their respective strengths and weaknesses), but what experience has shown me with valves, providing complimentary speakers are used, is their ability to unravel/resolve musical information, which in order to achieve the same effect with a comparable SS amp, would require the amplifier to be played significantly louder.

    I'm not entirely sure what the cause is for that, but it's a genuine effect I've heard many times over the years, when comparing valve and transistor amps.

    However, I suspect it's also behind (or linked to) why 'valve watts' are often considered to be different from those of their transistor counterparts, such that, say, a good 30W valve amplifier can sound subjectively as 'powerful' as a transistor amp, which on paper, is many times more powerful, in terms of its measured output. You've probably experienced that yourself (as I did), after moving from Naim to valve amplification.

    We would need one of our resident valve amp engineers/designers to comment on the possible technical reasons for it.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #25
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Reed View Post
    .

    Marco mentioned valves being better able to dynamically resolve at lower levels, .
    I think part of the problem is the use of the word 'dynamically'. I mean what does that sentence actually mean? You could get rid of 'dynamically' altogether and then it would make sense, at least to an extent. Not sure if this is the same problem Dennis is having.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  6. #26
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 1,064
    I'm Mike.

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    Well I never, Marco ! I was always lead to believe that valve power was intrinsically more potent than similar s/s, watt for watt.. Didn't realise that I'd followed a similar, if not parallel path to you, though I went from 60's Jason valve to the first s/s (Leak, Truvox) and back to Quad and RCA mono's, to the Naim treadmill and back again to E.A.R. Just like coming home, really. The ELSs are a departure, though (after over 50 years of m/coil).

  7. #27
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I think part of the problem is the use of the word 'dynamically'. I mean what does that sentence actually mean?
    Well, if you read what I wrote before on the matter, and where Mike plucked his comment from, it becomes clearer:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco
    Coincidentally, that's one of the things the combination of (quality) valve amplification [as unlike most SS gear, its not strangled by excessive feedback] and high-efficiency speakers does well: it allows music to be reproduced with the requisite 'presence' and natural dynamics, in order for one not to need to listen loudly, in order for said music to 'come alive'.
    "Better able to dynamically resolve", would therefore mean the ability to reproduce the natural dynamics present on music recordings, without having to listen loudly to achieve that effect.

    Sometimes, certain transistor amplifiers can sound a bit 'dead'/lacklustre, until you crank them up a bit. You don't have to do that with a good valve amp, as long as it's partnered with the right speakers

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  8. #28
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Well, if you read what I wrote before on the matter, and where Mike plucked his comment from, it becomes clearer:



    "Better able to dynamically resolve", would therefore mean the ability to reproduce the natural dynamics present on music recordings, without having to listen loudly to achieve that effect.

    Sometimes, certain transistor amplifiers can sound a bit 'dead'/lacklustre, until you crank them up a bit. You don't have to do that with a good valve amp, as long as it's partnered with the right speakers

    Marco.
    I think it is the use of 'dynamic' and 'dynamically' as subjective descriptive terms that is the issue here. obviously the dynamic range of the system or the recording is unaffected by whether the power is from tubes or silicon. And as Dennis points out, if you are playing the music quietly then you will not achieve the full dynamic range that the system or the recording are capable of. Otherwise, I agree with you (and Mike).
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  9. #29
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Reed View Post
    Well I never, Marco ! I was always lead to believe that valve power was intrinsically more potent than similar s/s, watt for watt.. Didn't realise that I'd followed a similar, if not parallel path to you...
    Yes, "potent" is a good word to use, as that's exactly what is subjectively experienced

    In recent times, I've gone from Naim 135s (75W), to huge 'behemoth' ECS Monoblocks, which were rated at 180W, then to a Chinese (Yaqin) push-pull valve amp, rated at 30W, which sounded subjectively more 'potent' than either of my previous (more powerful 'on paper') SS amps, finally settling on my current 50W (KT150-based) push-pull TD Copper amp, and which sounds massively better and more 'potent'/powerful than any amplifier I've ever used, with either my previous Spendor SP100s or current Tannoys, featuring 15" Monitor Golds.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #30
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 1,064
    I'm Mike.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I think part of the problem is the use of the word 'dynamically'. I mean what does that sentence actually mean? You could get rid of 'dynamically' altogether and then it would make sense, at least to an extent. Not sure if this is the same problem Dennis is having.
    It was Dennis who introduced the 'dynamics' aspect (though that is simply a term for 'alive, involving and other adjectives). I simply addressed the vol. control level comparison. 'Circles' and 'going round in' comes to mind here, but it was forever thus (in hifi at least !

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