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Thread: Your most loved three vinyl grinders owned throughout the years!

  1. #51
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 46,427
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Arrow Update...

    I've just read this from Dave C on another thread:

    We can make an arm plate to get the EMT cartridge in the right place on the Jelco...
    That completely solves the problem and saves me a wad of cash in the process - hurrah for Mr Cawley!

    Marco.
    My system:

    Modified Technics SL-1210MK5G/Mike New high-precision bearing & base-plate/Mike New ETP platter/Trans-Fi Audio Resomat/Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules)/DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Yaeger (low-impedance) connector. Ortofon RS212D tonearm (fitted to 'Speedy Steve' custom-made Ebony armboard). Yannis Tome 423.5 Phono Silver Litz tonearm cable (fitted with Furutech CF-DIN(R) and Eichmann silver Bullet Plugs)/Ortofon SPU Royal GM MKII cartridge. Other cartridges: Denon DL-S1 (fitted into an AT MG-10 headshell with AT-6106 Quattro Hybrid lead wire), Denon DL-103 (with FR S/3 headshell), US-original Shure SC35C. Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 transport/DAC. Nakamichi BX-125E. Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X preamp. MC head amps: Paul Hynes with SR5 PSU. Nick G modified Lentek. Tube Distinctions 50W Class A (P/P) Copper amp, with cryo-treated Tung Sol KT120s. 'Lockwood Major' speakers, using 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds, modified with bespoke crossovers. Other speakers used: Celestion Ditton 66 Studio Monitors. Stands: Mana Acoustics (non-magnetic stainless steel 'clones'). Cables: Mains Cables R Us 'Ultimate' power leads (using Furukawa EE/F-S 2mm & 2.6mm solid-core cable), with Furutech FI-50 IECs and FI-1363R 13A plugs. Also Supra LoRad 2.5 (for PH head amp). Stereo interconnects: Klotz MC5000 high-grade microphone cable/MS Audio Starline Rhodium-plated plugs. Oyaide FTVS510 digital interconnect with WBT NextGen-0110Ag RCAs. VDH 'The Wind' Hybrid II speaker cable. Mains block: Mark Grant 6-way, modded with Furutech FP-1363R sockets and Furukawa cable. Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW 16.5 record cleaner.

    "Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play" -- Immanuel Kant.

    Digital music: do you remember your first ever download? Unlikely... But you'll probably remember the first record you bought! Forget 'virtual music': VINYL IS FOREVER...

  2. #52
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: South West England

    Posts: 820
    I'm Guy.

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    I didn't use an EMT cartridge when I had the EMT turntable here.

    However, I have borrowed an EMT cartridge in the past (one of these)


    It was certainly powerful sounding but the HF was hard & ultimately fatiguing. I couldn't have lived with it in the long term. Personally I think I'd take an SPU, for all its foibles, every time.

  3. #53
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 46,427
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    That's right you had that Shure SC35C on it, didn't you?

    It was certainly powerful sounding but the HF was hard & ultimately fatiguing. I couldn't have lived with it in the long term.
    Yup, thing is though Barry's XSD-15 didn't sound like that at all when set-up in my system - quite the opposite in fact!

    They must be different designs?

    I guess that I just really like the sound of broadcast cartridges (DL-103 and such like), and to my ears in my system, the XSD-15 sounds like another very fine example of the breed

    Marco.
    My system:

    Modified Technics SL-1210MK5G/Mike New high-precision bearing & base-plate/Mike New ETP platter/Trans-Fi Audio Resomat/Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules)/DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Yaeger (low-impedance) connector. Ortofon RS212D tonearm (fitted to 'Speedy Steve' custom-made Ebony armboard). Yannis Tome 423.5 Phono Silver Litz tonearm cable (fitted with Furutech CF-DIN(R) and Eichmann silver Bullet Plugs)/Ortofon SPU Royal GM MKII cartridge. Other cartridges: Denon DL-S1 (fitted into an AT MG-10 headshell with AT-6106 Quattro Hybrid lead wire), Denon DL-103 (with FR S/3 headshell), US-original Shure SC35C. Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 transport/DAC. Nakamichi BX-125E. Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X preamp. MC head amps: Paul Hynes with SR5 PSU. Nick G modified Lentek. Tube Distinctions 50W Class A (P/P) Copper amp, with cryo-treated Tung Sol KT120s. 'Lockwood Major' speakers, using 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds, modified with bespoke crossovers. Other speakers used: Celestion Ditton 66 Studio Monitors. Stands: Mana Acoustics (non-magnetic stainless steel 'clones'). Cables: Mains Cables R Us 'Ultimate' power leads (using Furukawa EE/F-S 2mm & 2.6mm solid-core cable), with Furutech FI-50 IECs and FI-1363R 13A plugs. Also Supra LoRad 2.5 (for PH head amp). Stereo interconnects: Klotz MC5000 high-grade microphone cable/MS Audio Starline Rhodium-plated plugs. Oyaide FTVS510 digital interconnect with WBT NextGen-0110Ag RCAs. VDH 'The Wind' Hybrid II speaker cable. Mains block: Mark Grant 6-way, modded with Furutech FP-1363R sockets and Furukawa cable. Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW 16.5 record cleaner.

    "Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play" -- Immanuel Kant.

    Digital music: do you remember your first ever download? Unlikely... But you'll probably remember the first record you bought! Forget 'virtual music': VINYL IS FOREVER...

  4. #54
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: South West England

    Posts: 820
    I'm Guy.

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    Only briefly with the Shure. It wasn't great. I had 2 or 3 other MM's to try but was somewhat constrained by having to use the TT's hardwired in, mm only phono stage.

    Could also have done with one of these TDU headshells really.

    http://www.emt-profi.de/headshell_tdu.htm

  5. #55
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 46,427
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Indeed - it could well have been. I'm not sure I like the design of that headshell too much, TBH...

    Another significant factor could've been that the A23 SUT also works very well with the XSD-15, as was confirmed by Shindo USA (who distribute Auditorium products), when I decided to buy the A23 and I was talking to them about SUTs for the 103, EMT and SPU - all of which Auditorium 23 make SUTs for

    Basically, the bottom line was that the synergy was spot-on with the combo I had in conjunction with the EMT XSD-15 in my system

    Marco.
    My system:

    Modified Technics SL-1210MK5G/Mike New high-precision bearing & base-plate/Mike New ETP platter/Trans-Fi Audio Resomat/Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules)/DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Yaeger (low-impedance) connector. Ortofon RS212D tonearm (fitted to 'Speedy Steve' custom-made Ebony armboard). Yannis Tome 423.5 Phono Silver Litz tonearm cable (fitted with Furutech CF-DIN(R) and Eichmann silver Bullet Plugs)/Ortofon SPU Royal GM MKII cartridge. Other cartridges: Denon DL-S1 (fitted into an AT MG-10 headshell with AT-6106 Quattro Hybrid lead wire), Denon DL-103 (with FR S/3 headshell), US-original Shure SC35C. Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 transport/DAC. Nakamichi BX-125E. Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X preamp. MC head amps: Paul Hynes with SR5 PSU. Nick G modified Lentek. Tube Distinctions 50W Class A (P/P) Copper amp, with cryo-treated Tung Sol KT120s. 'Lockwood Major' speakers, using 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds, modified with bespoke crossovers. Other speakers used: Celestion Ditton 66 Studio Monitors. Stands: Mana Acoustics (non-magnetic stainless steel 'clones'). Cables: Mains Cables R Us 'Ultimate' power leads (using Furukawa EE/F-S 2mm & 2.6mm solid-core cable), with Furutech FI-50 IECs and FI-1363R 13A plugs. Also Supra LoRad 2.5 (for PH head amp). Stereo interconnects: Klotz MC5000 high-grade microphone cable/MS Audio Starline Rhodium-plated plugs. Oyaide FTVS510 digital interconnect with WBT NextGen-0110Ag RCAs. VDH 'The Wind' Hybrid II speaker cable. Mains block: Mark Grant 6-way, modded with Furutech FP-1363R sockets and Furukawa cable. Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW 16.5 record cleaner.

    "Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play" -- Immanuel Kant.

    Digital music: do you remember your first ever download? Unlikely... But you'll probably remember the first record you bought! Forget 'virtual music': VINYL IS FOREVER...

  6. #56
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: South West England

    Posts: 820
    I'm Guy.

    Default

    There are 3 visible aspects of this cartridge design which could be improved upon.



    A. The shape of the magnetic circuit is full of discontinuities, ie changes in profile. This is far from ideal. You really want a smooth shape without right angled bends etc. The ideal would be a round section ring with a small gap for the coils to sit in and the pole pieces either side of the coils shaped to focus the field right through where the coils sit. the more closely that can be approximated, the better the magnetic field will behave.

    B. the lead off wires from the coils go straight to the points where the output wires are attached. How these fine wires are 'dressed' will affect the behaviour of the coil. There are better ways of managing these wires.

    C. All of the EMT generators seem to need some capacitative loading to control that HF response which suggests to me that something in the design is flawed. I have heard of people having to alter the capacitative loading, sometimes adding more to get it to work satisfactorily.

    Not convinced that the open body is a great idea either. All imho of course.

  7. #57
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 46,427
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Hey, if you say so Capt'n... I'm afraid most of that is beyond my big daft nut!

    Do you know if the EMTs (specifically the XSD-15 I heard) use Alnicos?

    Marco.
    My system:

    Modified Technics SL-1210MK5G/Mike New high-precision bearing & base-plate/Mike New ETP platter/Trans-Fi Audio Resomat/Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules)/DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Yaeger (low-impedance) connector. Ortofon RS212D tonearm (fitted to 'Speedy Steve' custom-made Ebony armboard). Yannis Tome 423.5 Phono Silver Litz tonearm cable (fitted with Furutech CF-DIN(R) and Eichmann silver Bullet Plugs)/Ortofon SPU Royal GM MKII cartridge. Other cartridges: Denon DL-S1 (fitted into an AT MG-10 headshell with AT-6106 Quattro Hybrid lead wire), Denon DL-103 (with FR S/3 headshell), US-original Shure SC35C. Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 transport/DAC. Nakamichi BX-125E. Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X preamp. MC head amps: Paul Hynes with SR5 PSU. Nick G modified Lentek. Tube Distinctions 50W Class A (P/P) Copper amp, with cryo-treated Tung Sol KT120s. 'Lockwood Major' speakers, using 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds, modified with bespoke crossovers. Other speakers used: Celestion Ditton 66 Studio Monitors. Stands: Mana Acoustics (non-magnetic stainless steel 'clones'). Cables: Mains Cables R Us 'Ultimate' power leads (using Furukawa EE/F-S 2mm & 2.6mm solid-core cable), with Furutech FI-50 IECs and FI-1363R 13A plugs. Also Supra LoRad 2.5 (for PH head amp). Stereo interconnects: Klotz MC5000 high-grade microphone cable/MS Audio Starline Rhodium-plated plugs. Oyaide FTVS510 digital interconnect with WBT NextGen-0110Ag RCAs. VDH 'The Wind' Hybrid II speaker cable. Mains block: Mark Grant 6-way, modded with Furutech FP-1363R sockets and Furukawa cable. Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW 16.5 record cleaner.

    "Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play" -- Immanuel Kant.

    Digital music: do you remember your first ever download? Unlikely... But you'll probably remember the first record you bought! Forget 'virtual music': VINYL IS FOREVER...

  8. #58
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: South West England

    Posts: 820
    I'm Guy.

    Default

    No I don't although it wouldn't surprise me given the age of the design. I think the XSD15 is just the above, but in an EMT shell with a bottom cover fitted.

    However it would seem that converting an XSD15 to be universally usable is not quite straightforward.

    Here's an interesting write-up on ZG

    http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17016

  9. #59
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 46,427
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Thanks - I've have a good read through that later!

    I suspect that the EMT does use Alnicos, because I can hear their trademark 'musicality'. What's obvious to me is that something must be causing the difference between this:

    It was certainly powerful sounding but the HF was hard & ultimately fatiguing. I couldn't have lived with it in the long term.
    And this:

    What I heard (effects of misalignment and incorrect VTA aside) was that similar 'magic' and tonal richness in presentation, with bass to die for, I get with the DL-103SA - the effect of which I love, (does the EMT also use Alnicos?), but with a much wider repertoire throughout the frequency range in terms of its musical abilities. It also acted as a wider open window onto recordings, due to its superior detail retrieval, and it possessed a filigree of silkiness in the upper frequencies that evades the (already talented in this area through the A23) 103SA.
    ...when referring to the EMT, because neither of us are imagining what we hear!

    A valid explanation must exist to explain the diametrically opposed results obtained, and I'm certain it's not simply just down to our different preferences, because generally you and I have similar tastes in audio.

    Marco.
    My system:

    Modified Technics SL-1210MK5G/Mike New high-precision bearing & base-plate/Mike New ETP platter/Trans-Fi Audio Resomat/Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules)/DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Yaeger (low-impedance) connector. Ortofon RS212D tonearm (fitted to 'Speedy Steve' custom-made Ebony armboard). Yannis Tome 423.5 Phono Silver Litz tonearm cable (fitted with Furutech CF-DIN(R) and Eichmann silver Bullet Plugs)/Ortofon SPU Royal GM MKII cartridge. Other cartridges: Denon DL-S1 (fitted into an AT MG-10 headshell with AT-6106 Quattro Hybrid lead wire), Denon DL-103 (with FR S/3 headshell), US-original Shure SC35C. Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 transport/DAC. Nakamichi BX-125E. Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X preamp. MC head amps: Paul Hynes with SR5 PSU. Nick G modified Lentek. Tube Distinctions 50W Class A (P/P) Copper amp, with cryo-treated Tung Sol KT120s. 'Lockwood Major' speakers, using 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds, modified with bespoke crossovers. Other speakers used: Celestion Ditton 66 Studio Monitors. Stands: Mana Acoustics (non-magnetic stainless steel 'clones'). Cables: Mains Cables R Us 'Ultimate' power leads (using Furukawa EE/F-S 2mm & 2.6mm solid-core cable), with Furutech FI-50 IECs and FI-1363R 13A plugs. Also Supra LoRad 2.5 (for PH head amp). Stereo interconnects: Klotz MC5000 high-grade microphone cable/MS Audio Starline Rhodium-plated plugs. Oyaide FTVS510 digital interconnect with WBT NextGen-0110Ag RCAs. VDH 'The Wind' Hybrid II speaker cable. Mains block: Mark Grant 6-way, modded with Furutech FP-1363R sockets and Furukawa cable. Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW 16.5 record cleaner.

    "Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play" -- Immanuel Kant.

    Digital music: do you remember your first ever download? Unlikely... But you'll probably remember the first record you bought! Forget 'virtual music': VINYL IS FOREVER...

  10. #60
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 8,828
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by puresound
    Having used an EMT 929 recently on the 938 I borrowed, I'm not sure I'd put it in the same class as either the Alphason or an SME. It struck me as a rather clunky, agricultural device somewhat crudely executed and lacking the potential for easy fine adjustment.
    I'm inclined to agree. The 929 arm is similar in appearance to the Thorens TP14 (though the EMT arm is allegedly better built). I would place the 929 with the Audio Technica AT1503 III, another arm designed for broadcast use. Regarding adjustments, the application of tracking force is little different to any other arm, bias is achieved with a hanging weight (as the SME) and the adjustment of VTA is no different from most arms (i.e. difficult).

    It has to be remembered that EMT designed their deck, arm and cartridge for broadcast studio use. It had to be sufficiently robust and reliable to withstand the rigors of continious use for several hours a day, day in day out.

    This also explains why there is no adjustment of overhang within the headshell of EMT cartridges. EMT designed the arm and the cartridge as one (much as Decca did). The goal was one of consistency; each cartridge was to be as near identical to any other sample. Again a deliberate policy; should a cartridge fail in use, a replacement could be fitted in a matter of seconds, without the necessity of readjusting overhang or tracking force and bias; important in broadcast use.

    I certainly wouldn't take the trouble to buy a loose one & fit it to a technics or any other deck for that matter. I suspect there are better, more versatile arms out there for similar money or less.
    Again I agree. Thanks to the Japanese (who have done the same for the Ortofon SPU), EMT 929 arms now fetch rediculous sums on ebay and the like. There are I believe much better arms available, the Jelco being one such. I happen to use an EMT 929 arm with the TSD15 cartridge because I have a 930 deck. As a whole I am very pleased with the overall performance.

    I also use an XSD15 in either an SME3009 or 3012 arm. The SMEs are used because they use a sliding base to adjust overhang, as there is no provision to do this within the EMT headshell. I have used an EMT/SME combination for the last 30 years.

    It was certainly powerful sounding but the HF was hard & ultimately fatiguing. I couldn't have lived with it in the long term. Personally I think I'd take an SPU, for all its foibles, every time.
    I understand what you are saying, though I would describe the treble as 'untidy'. In comparison with the Denon 103 series, I would say that the Denon is better in the bass both tonally and in its control, compared to the EMT and also that the treble is 'tidier'. I have noticed this with my own Denon 103C and also with Marco's 103SA. It should also be noted that the EMT displays a very broad sag in its response starting around 1KHz and finishing around 7KHz, being 2dB deep at around 4KHz. In comparison the Denon is near ruler flat. This might explain the musical features that Marco likes.

    None of my EMTs are fitted with capacitors to 'tame' the top end. That was a development made by Roksan and by the German company Tubafon, who take nude EMT generators and modify them. Incidently I notice in the photograph of the nude EMT you tried, capacitors are fitted, yet you still found the treble hard and fatiguing?

    There seems to be no real consensus over the correct loading for an EMT. EMT don't fit capacitors at the cartridge. The current STX-21 transformer (10:1 step up) has a 33uF capacitor fitted inside as well as a shunt resistor on the secondary side, so effectively loading the cartridge with 171.5 Ohm, assuming a nominal 47Kohm loading by the preamp. The A23 transformer, I believe, offers a loading of 105 Ohm and seemed to work very well with the EMT. I have read of other users loading the EMT with 600-800 Ohms (800 Ohms was recomended by the reviewers in The Absolute Sound magazine). I use 100 Ohms plus 22nF.

    The coil resistance of the EMT is 22Ohm, similar to the 14Ohm figure for the Denon103SA. Further evidence that the A23 SUT is a good match for EMTs

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco
    You might be right about the EMT tonearm, in comparison to the Jelco SA-750, but I'm afraid I may have no other option of fitting the EMT if I wish to use the cartridge I described above, which would be the TSD-15 if I were to fit an EMT arm onto the 1210.

    The reason for this is that the XSD-15, which has an SME-type bayonet fitting, comes with an especially long shaft, which makes it protrude much further from the end of the Jelco than a normal detachable headshell, thus I suspect skewing correct alignment by quite a significant margin. Therefore, as there is no alignment adjustment possible on the headshell, and as the Jelco arm itself cannot be moved in any way, I'm forced to look at other options...

    What I thought could solve the issue is to go for an EMT arm, that would thus allow me to use the matching TSD-15 cartridge, which crucially has a very short and stubby shaft, shorter in fact than even that on a normal detachable headshell (in fact, it almost mates directly with the arm), so I suspect that this would likely allow for correct alignment, but of course it is by no means guaranteed - the only way I'll know for sure is to try it and see!
    Don't be confused between the TSD and XSD headshells. The XSD design was made so that EMT cartridges could be used in SME arms, killing two birds with one stone: changing the Neuman 'diamond' contact arrangement to that of the EIA/SME arrangement, as well as arranging for the correct overhang in the shorter SME arm.

    If I were starting from a clean state, as you can Marco, I would retain the Jelco arm (especially as Dave C can provide the correct arm board) and procure a 'nude' EMT and fit it into the Fidelity Research headshell. I have doubts about the resonant behaviour and integrity of the EMT headshell.

    The EMT929 arm (with TSD cartridge ) has the following geometry:

    effective length (stylus tip to arm pivot), 244mm
    overhang, 14mm
    offset, 20.8 degree
    mounting distance (from turntable spigot), 230mm.

    This should help Dave C with the Jelco armboard.

    Do you know if the EMTs (specifically the XSD-15 I heard) use Alnicos?
    Yes they do. I have read elsewher of people prefering Alnico magnets (espsecially in speaker drive units), though I don't understand why.

    Apologies for the length of this post, but being a bit of an EMT enthusiast and knowing the Marco was quite impressed on hearing my sample in his system, I want to offer as much encouragement as I can.

    Regards
    Barry

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