Is 'What It Sounds Like' All That Matters'?

[Mike Reed]

I disagree with some of the comments in previous posts; mainly about not researching the piece of kit one's interested in. If you primarily buy used, as I do, you'll have to take a bit of a punt. However, if you read everything on all sources at your disposal, whether mag. reviews, personal reviews or general feedback, you can reduce the risk factor considerably. If you then buy at a tradable price, your losses in the event of incompatibility can be minimal in tn the event of resale.

Only by listening to a piece of kit in your own familiar system surroundings over a reasonable time can you be sure. Conversely, of course, your ears may familiarise themselves over time; easy enough to revert to the original kit. That usually does the trick. It's folly, I believe, to sell something to achieve something else; that way lies regret.

Can't say I've ever bought something as a direct result of a shop or hifi show dem. The one time a decade or more ago that I took my CDP into a dealer dem. against a more modern version (both Meridian), I was totally underwhelmed. Six months later I took a punt on that same model and it was clearly superior to what I had. Not difficult to draw conclusions.

As cartridges are all but impossible to hear on dem. (not that would mean much anyway), I took a punt a couple of years back on a discounted new cart. simply on account of the many happy owners of its previous model on the forums over the years and Google experiences etc. The few mag. reviews were positive, too. Certainly the finest cart. I've had in any vinyl front end, usurping my Benz Ebony and K. Urushi (and a friend's Lyra Titan i upon his vist last November).

You've got to take a bit of a punt in this game, so it might as well be an educated one.

[Marco]

You've got to take a bit of a punt in this game, so it might as well be an educated one.

Precisely

But... Said 'education' doesn't necessarily have to be based upon digesting reams of convoluted specs or measurements, especially if you don't properly understand them...

Marco.

[RothwellAudio]

Or so you would think. However 'Just listening' has some major drawbacks when used as the sole method of evaluating a piece of equipment or even a format. If you don't, or are unable to put what you are hearing in context, you can end up making some wrong assumptions, and consequently make some poor buying decisions. Whilst it is always pretty clear-cut whether we like the sound we hear or we don't, making any further assumptions solely from that input can lead us down a garden path.

I think you're absolutely correct Martin. It would be nice if everything was a perfectly compatible with everything else and a simple "plug and play" approach was always guaranteed to work - and in the wider world of ordinary consumer audio it probably is - but at the more esoteric end of the spectrum things aren't so simple. Take a valve pre-amp for example. Your mate may have a Brand X valve pre-amp and it sounds great so you think you'll buy a valve pre-amp too, but you buy Brand Y. You get a sound which is merely ok - nothing special at all - and so you conclude that Brand X is superior to Brand Y.
The truth turns out to be rather different: your mate's power amp is also valve and has a very high input impedance, whereas your power amp is a transistor jobby with a much lower input impedance. That means Brand Y doesn't perform well with your power amp, but Brand X wouldn't a fared any better in your system either, so claiming Brand Y to be inferior to Brand X is drawing a false conclusion.

Anyway, I think you're spot-on and "what it sounds like" can be very misleading.

[George47]

Lots of good points being made.

Certainly how it sounds in your system and to you is a key part. You are using it for reproducing music and if you are an organ aficionado then you will listen to different things to a chamber music fan or a Led Zep fan. It is your system.

Do your research to make sure it fits in your rack, it does not weigh a ton on your Ikea table, the power is sufficient etc. Once done, and a unique advantage of the web, is ask what people think. You will get a real cross section of views but you should get real people's view with possibly a few gems. Take some of the answers with a pinch of salt as they could come from people with a financial interest or fanboys. This is something paper based reviews can't easily do. Responses on reliability are helpful as you find out how the company deals with real people's complaints. Yes read the reviews but try to find someone aligned to your own views and avoid the 'everything is wonderful' person. NO not me.

For me, when I get a product home I will listen to a set of test tracks and if I then move to my normal music, I could be really liking it. I try to listen to the product for a few days and let it really get under my skin. I then re-insert the original and form a view. A/B comparisons are not that helpful as they highlight sound level and frequency response differences.

It is a music reproducer not a piece of test equipment. If the music induces a response then great. There is too much hifi out there and not enough stuff that allows the music to shine.

[Marco]

It is a music reproducer not a piece of test equipment. If the music induces a response then great. There is too much hifi out there and not enough stuff that allows the music to shine.

Never a truer word was said, George!!

And many folks seem to forget that, and lose the plot... I completely agree with all three of your statements.

Marco.

[George47]

I think you're absolutely correct Martin. It would be nice if everything was a perfectly compatible with everything else and a simple "plug and play" approach was always guaranteed to work - and in the wider world of ordinary consumer audio it probably is - but at the more esoteric end of the spectrum things aren't so simple. Take a valve pre-amp for example. Your mate may have a Brand X valve pre-amp and it sounds great so you think you'll buy a valve pre-amp too, but you buy Brand Y. You get a sound which is merely ok - nothing special at all - and so you conclude that Brand X is superior to Brand Y.
The truth turns out to be rather different: your mate's power amp is also valve and has a very high input impedance, whereas your power amp is a transistor jobby with a much lower input impedance. That means Brand Y doesn't perform well with your power amp, but Brand X wouldn't a fared any better in your system either, so claiming Brand Y to be inferior to Brand X is drawing a false conclusion.

Anyway, I think you're spot-on and "what it sounds like" can be very misleading.

True but at the end of the day the valve preamp does not work well with your power amp and it is therefore not for you.

[RothwellAudio]

True but at the end of the day the valve preamp does not work well with your power amp and it is therefore not for you.

That approach might work for you but as a professional I need to know more - I need to know why something worked great in one context but failed to shine in another.
Besides, you're assuming that in my example the purchaser realised that the problem lay with the pre/power mis-match. I'm saying that the "it only matters what it sounds like" approach wouldn't lead anyone to that conclusion, rather they'd simply conclude that Brand Y is rubbish.

[Marco]

That approach might work for you but as a professional I need to know more...

Yup, if you're a designer or builder, different rules apply - but otherwise unless you *properly* understand measurements or specs, in their correct technical context, and know how to use that knowledge to your benefit, they're unlikely to be of much use, and so for most will simply confuse matters.

Also, the fact is, no matter how much you try to understand why what does what, at some point, when it comes to how things sound, you'll have to trust your own ears and judgment, and that's the main message I'd like to put across on this thread.

The more that folks learn to do that, and not simply rely on specs and measurements, or blindly copy those whom they feel are greater 'experts' then they are, the better it'll ultimately be for their musical enjoyment

Marco.

[Macca]

That approach might work for you but as a professional I need to know more - I need to know why something worked great in one context but failed to shine in another.
Besides, you're assuming that in my example the purchaser realised that the problem lay with the pre/power mis-match. I'm saying that the "it only matters what it sounds like" approach wouldn't lead anyone to that conclusion, rather they'd simply conclude that Brand Y is rubbish.

In a nutshell the point I was making. And this isn't about digesting 'reams of stats and measurements'. And it makes no difference whether your re professionally involved in hi-fi or not. You don't need a degree in electronic engineering, just a basic understanding of how it works.

For example few of us could repair our car's engine if it blew. But that doesn't mean we don't have a basic understanding of how an engine works. If someone told you that your engine worked because of a quantum effect then you would laugh at them since although you are not a mechanic you know enough about engines to know this is bollocks.

But when it comes to hi-fi too many seem not to care at all. They listen , they like, then they tell other people it sounds good because of the quantum effect, (since this is what the salesman told them) and other people believe them!

Soon manufacturers start making more products that claim to harness this technology. 6 months later no-one is making a product without quantum effect. Then quantum effect replaces good engineering because you don't need good engineering to make sales, you just need to put a quantum effect sticker on some bog standard bit of crap and it will fly out the door. And no real progress in audio engineering is made anymore.

[Marco]

In a nutshell the point I was making. And this isn't about digesting 'reams of stats and measurements'. And it makes no difference whether your re professionally involved in hi-fi or not. You don't need a degree in electronic engineering, just a basic understanding of how it works.

Absolutely, but what would you suggest as an example of the latter - how far do you go? Should one simply know how to use a multi-meter, read an oscilloscope, or perhaps understand a circuit diagram?

I have a basic understanding of how things work, but when discussions revolve around deciphering graphs or maths equations, and other forms of technical measurements, my eyes glaze over, as I have no interest in that whatsoever, nor do I believe it would be of much use to me, even if I did understand it, as a simple listener and music lover.

We've been here before, and you know that I've managed to build a very nice sounding system indeed, whilst having paid scant attention to understanding 'how it works'

And as I've said before, you cannot force yourself to become interested in something that simply bores you to tears.... I'm a music lover, first and foremost. not a tech geek.

But when it comes to hi-fi too many seem not to care at all. They listen , they like, then they tell other people it sounds good because of the quantum effect, (since this is what the salesman told them) and other people believe them!

That may happen in some instances, among novices or the most gullible, but I don't see much evidence of it on specialist audio forums such as this.

Soon manufacturers start making more products that claim to harness this technology. 6 months later no-one is making a product without quantum effect. Then quantum effect replaces good engineering because you don't need good engineering to make sales, you just need to put a quantum effect sticker on some bog standard bit of crap and it will fly out the door. And no real progress in audio engineering is made anymore.

There are other more valid reasons, IMO, responsible for the above, such as a critical decline in discerning listeners (folk who genuinely care about sound quality). Therefore, manufacturers will simply cater for [often pander to] the demand - whatever that demand is - so if you want better engineered equipment, then find more people these days who care about sound quality, and crucially, are willing to pay for it!

The gradual (and continual) decline in standards, since the heyday of audio (hi-fi), is your biggest problem - and here I'm blaming the bulk of today's buyers, as much as anything else, and their lack of sonic discernment, thus giving manufacturers an easy cop-out, in terms of having to design equipment to the highest standard. That is the biggest reason for some of the crap or mediocrity being produced.

Some of what folks today consider as 'good' shocks me.... You could start with those who think 'good sound' emanates from headphones, connected to an iPhone, or who consider a 'soundbar' as an adequate speaker for use in a proper home-cinema system.

The lack of discernment these days runs deep, and if that's your benchmark for 'goodness', then when it comes to hi-fi, even the most mediocre equipment will impress you, so quite simply, commercial manufacturers now don't have to work very hard, or push any sonic boundaries, to sell their kit - and that 'disease', to an extent, has also infected today's so-called 'high-end' market, where all too often style triumphs over substance.

Therefore, look no further than that as largely being the reason for the decline in standards you're highlighting.

Marco.