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Thread: Electrostatic/Planar Speakers

  1. #61
    Join Date: May 2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by User211 View Post
    Parasound A21 plus a fairly good valve pre. That'll work well for circa £2K 2nd hand.

    Really, really well.

    Trust me. I tell no lie. Watch this jewel swinging back and forth.
    I had the A23 model on extended (30 day) audition and it had enough power to drive the Maggies. Unfortunately, I found the combination a little hard sounding so did not keep it.

    Geoff

  2. #62
    Join Date: Jan 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherwood View Post
    I had the A23 model on extended (30 day) audition and it had enough power to drive the Maggies. Unfortunately, I found the combination a little hard sounding so did not keep it.

    Geoff
    I agree. Unless you use a good valve pre. In which case it is very good indeed. At least it was on Apogee Duettas.

    A passive or active SS pre was a bad idea. I literally couldn't really listen to it.

    I think the A21 used with a valve pre is just a killer combination for the money. To be fair I was using an EAR 868PL at the time but then switched to a much cheaper valve pre which I prefer by quite a margin.

    I think the A21 is a fair notch above the A23 to be fair. But I'd still expect a reasonably similar sound.

    Not long ago someone bought an A21 around after I had been without one for a while and I still thought it was great. For the money.

  3. #63
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninanina View Post
    So are electrostatics any easier to drive than Maggies ?
    Yes, considerably.

    20w of valves will easily drive 57s (they date from the valve era and the original Quad II valve amps are only 15w), 35w will happily drive 63s, though both are happier with a bit more. No need for more than 50-60w for either. Always Push pull - forget low-powered SET.

    Alternatively, any of the Quad solid state amps intended for ESLs: 303 or 405 for the 57; 405, 606, 909 for the 63 - the later the better. Avoid the 306, it wasn't intended for electrostatic use and doesn't have the ability to handle the impedance dips.

    Agree totally on the need for lots of watts with Maggies but 200-300w of class D is fairly cheap these days and I've have thought that would do the trick? Valve pre and your are done. Though to be fair I've never owned a pair so I'm not talking from experience here. Most Maggies I've heard at shows have not come up to the Quad ESL benchmark but that's probably shows for you.

    Panels (all electrostatic) were one of the few things that impressed me at the Munich show this year, there were several sets of giant ones and I could have lived with any of them. Some were up to 100k Euros though - whether they are that much better than a pair of Quad 2905 that can be had now s/h for under four grand, that's another story.

  4. #64
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Agree totally on the need for lots of watts with Maggies but 200-300w of class D is fairly cheap these days and I've have thought that would do the trick?
    I'm not so sure about that. I think you need current with Maggies.
    I suspect the cheaper high powered class D lack current delivery, it's all about Watts like a cheapish Japanese integrated with a small power supply.
    It was certainly my impression that a cheap 300wpc Crown XLS1500 class D amp totally failed to deliver the large scale presentation available at somewhat lesser wattage from a well implemented class A/B solid state design - I'm thinking of comparison with a Parasound A21 here.
    Last edited by jandl100; 23-01-2018 at 08:33.
    .

  5. #65
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Warrington

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    I'm Neil.

    Default Electrostatic/Planar Speakers

    As a general rule of thumb you want an amp that doubles in power from 8 to 4 Ohms, and again from 4 to 2 Ohms, with a rating of at least 100W at 4 Ohms, but people with big Maggies can run 1000W or more - there are some high current Class D designs out there like from Hypex. There are always exceptions in HiFi, but Maggies are low sensitivity low impedance speakers that demand a lot of current during peaks.

    ...having said this there are fans of using Maggies with big tube amps.
    Mana Acoustics Racks / Bright Star IsoNodes Decoupling >> Allo DigiOne Player >> Pedja Rogic's Audial Model S DAC + Pioneer PL-71 turntable / Vista Audio phono-1 mk II / Denon PCL-5 headshell / Reson Reca >> LFD DLS >> LFD PA2M (SE) >> Royd RR3s.

  6. #66
    Join Date: Jan 2013

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    The problem with planars - any planars ESL or magnetostatic, is not so much low impedance (within reason), but excursion limitations - at least when it comes to playing loud.

    Their excursion is limited, so getting something like a Quad ESL 57 to play loud means dumping MASSES of power into them. We did EXACTLY that at the MiBo bake off, whereby the clipping lamps on my 600 Watt amp lit up.

    Imagine stretching a piece of strong film of any kind. Then press on it. The further you push it in, the harder it is to move it. An amp sees the same problem.

    That Crown amp Jerry had did sound a bit vague/wishy washy on my speakers. Amps with less rated power can sound much more dynamic on them.

    It is pretty hard to draw up failsafe rules on an amps ability to drive a specific speaker subjectively well.

  7. #67
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by User211 View Post
    Their excursion is limited, so getting something like a Quad ESL 57 to play loud means dumping MASSES of power into them. We did EXACTLY that at the MiBo bake off, whereby the clipping lamps on my 600 Watt amp lit up.
    That was a bit surprising, no make that frightening (as they were my speakers ), but I actually think the protection boards were doing their job, thankfully, as the speakers suffered no ill effects.

    Usually they would be strictly limited to about 25W.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebottle View Post
    That was a bit surprising, no make that frightening (as they were my speakers ), but I actually think the protection boards were doing their job, thankfully, as the speakers suffered no ill effects.

    Usually they would be strictly limited to about 25W.
    Protection boards? Nothing like that in mine. But yeah, it was lights on at the back of your speakers IIRC correctly and on my amps. Full house - result!!!

    I bumped into Ken Ishiwata (Mr Marantz) outside the bar at Whittlebury. He used to run Apogees and the first word he uttered was tension when we got onto the topic. He's right. Tuning panels by getting tension right is pretty critical. And obviously the higher the tension the less the volume capability esp WRT bass. But uneven tension will also cause an uneven FR.

  9. #69
    Join Date: Sep 2011

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    I'm Gordon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Yes, considerably.

    20w of valves will easily drive 57s (they date from the valve era and the original Quad II valve amps are only 15w), 35w will happily drive 63s, though both are happier with a bit more. No need for more than 50-60w for either. Always Push pull - forget low-powered SET.

    Alternatively, any of the Quad solid state amps intended for ESLs: 303 or 405 for the 57; 405, 606, 909 for the 63 - the later the better. Avoid the 306, it wasn't intended for electrostatic use and doesn't have the ability to handle the impedance dips.

    Agree totally on the need for lots of watts with Maggies but 200-300w of class D is fairly cheap these days and I've have thought that would do the trick? Valve pre and your are done. Though to be fair I've never owned a pair so I'm not talking from experience here. Most Maggies I've heard at shows have not come up to the Quad ESL benchmark but that's probably shows for you.
    I understand what you are saying, Tom, but I think it is only part of the story.

    You are right - a Maggie will not thrive on 20 watts - but many electrostatics have quite rapid impedance swings (as you mentioned) down to 2 ohms or less (the '57 does) at certain freqencies. That makes for a difficult load for many amplifiers. A Maggie impedance curves tends to be relatively flat (a rise at crossover usually) which makes it quite easy for amps to drive them - providing they can provide plenty of current. So, yes 100 watts @4 ohms, but there are plenty of decent amps that will do that without breaking the bank.

    And I agree about Maggies at shows - the demos I've heard the last few years have been very poor. The flagship (at the time) 20.7 was at Cranage a couple of years ago in a large room and yet was only about 2 feet from the wall with some foam mattress stuffed behind them. They sounded very poor.

    Gordon

  10. #70
    Join Date: May 2016

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    I have been using Maggies for over 10 years and I am currently using 1.7s in my main system. Regarding the previous posts let me make a few points:

    Maggies are dipoles and need some space to work their magic. They emit energy both front and rear. Ideally they should be at least a metre from a rear wall and that wall should have some treatment to reduce reflections.

    Although they are floorstanding designs they benefit from some diy improvements. I constructed some very solid plinths from bonded layers of 18mm mdf. They raise the speakers by about 20cm, but more importantly provide a much more stable base. I have effectively clamped the metal stands of the speaker this base and that has brought about big improvements in image stability and detail resolution.

    Yes they need a lot of current but that is not just about driving them louder. It is about control. I cannot explain why, but with the right amp they are transformed.

    I tried about half a dozen good quality power amps before I found a good synergy. It was not raw power that prevailed as some of the less satisfactory pairings were more powerful on paper.

    Although ESLs and Ribbon designs share some attributes, it is not helpful to lump them together when considering suitable amps.


    Geoff

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