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Thread: Chinese Clones - Good value for money or rip off?

  1. #41
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

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    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    I think there is a big difference between Chinese designed and built items, and those designed by reputable well-known European, US or Japanese manufacturers that are assembled in China. It all comes down to the quality control applied in each of the two cases.

    Based on my experience with region-free DVD players, all the Chinese products I tried regularly failed after about 18 months. However my current player was made in Taiwan for Toshiba and remains fault free after 10 years of use.
    Barry

  2. #42
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Taiwan has always been a different ballgame though. We're talking about mainland China or 'Red' China or whatever it is nowdays.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  3. #43
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Taiwan has always been a different ballgame though. We're talking about mainland China or 'Red' China or whatever it is nowadays.
    Yes - when I see "Made in China" or "Made in PRC" printed on the label, my heart sinks. The trouble is so much stuff is now made there. Try buying an electric kettle, microwave oven or power tools - regardless of make: Russell Hobbs, Philips, Kenwood, Bosch, .... they are all made in China.
    Barry

  4. #44
    Join Date: Mar 2015

    Location: Finland

    Posts: 237
    I'm Kai.

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    Well, some of the clones look interesting. I agree blatantly ripping off a design is a bit suspect, in some cases more so than in others. I'd cut them some slack though... like I don't see much harm in ripping off a design from a product that hasn't been made for 10+ years. In some cases it's practically more about DIY enabling than ripping off But then there are products like some of the EAR 834P fakes, which I hear have even EAR engraved on the front plate, but in the versions they sell in eBay they have covered it with some copper tape. That's a currently available product and they ask something like $400 for the fake, which while still significantly cheaper than the original is getting into the territory where you could probably buy all the parts from known suppliers and build one yourself. Which I incidently take to mean they make a hefty profit on it, unless they actually use genuine premium parts. But then even in the case of EAR, if the fake costs $400 and the original retails for 5-6 times the price, are they really competing with the original? I have a hard time imagining a buyer prepared to pay 2000+ for a phono stage will suddenly go "oh well, I'll take the Chinese fake instead" - then again, someone who is willing to invest $500 might pick the Ear clone over some similarly priced original design by a legit manufacturer...

    On the other hand being a cheapskate and liking a bit of DIY, I love having these clones around, but I'd treat even the preassembled ones as preassembled DIY-kits, meaning you'll have to go over them which is no big deal if you plan to replace some parts anyway. Also I wouldn't trust the parts, fake parts are a very real issue and I've even heard of some fakes making it all the way through to retailers like Mouser and Digikey at times, though I imagine that must be pretty rare and this is only some hearsay I read somewhere. So yeah, I feel there's more to this than "it's wrong", sometimes it clearly is but others I don't really see the harm. Should be judged case by case, just like with the quality.

    Speaking of clones, what other interesting phono stages are out there besides the 834 clone? I see at least some which are supposed to be old Naim designs, but no idea of the quality or if those were worth cloning in the first place? Seems like fairly simple discrete solid state affairs, so the design is probably not that special to begin with and it was all in the execution, or so I would guess. Then again if it's a good circuit I wouldn't mind spending another 20-30 euros or so on some better parts to upgrade it. I'm having an itch both for a new phono stage and for some DIY fiddling, so I've been looking at both recognized well made kits and some Chinese stuff that might be a good platform to experiment and improve upon. In similar vein I was also thinking of a TCC TC-750, I'd have a better power supply already at hand and then I could just keep throwing money at the simple box to see how good it can get. Some people seem to say very good, while others are not that impressed with the design. It's a very simple affair, AFAIK 3-transistors per channel so state of the art it is not, but might be interesting.

  5. #45
    Join Date: Mar 2010

    Location: Sheffield

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    I'm Simon.

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    Pharos, i have some experience with chinese/taiwanese titanium frames, we sell about 1500 a year. If the welds look good, and it's not checmical gas grade pipe you should be ok. I've been to a lot of vendors and quality varies hugely. Those who do full argon purge and double pass welds, then apply the correct heat treatment are few and far between.
    Kuzma Stabi/S 12", (LP12-bastard) DC motor and optical tacho psu, Benz LP, Paradise (phonostage). MB-Pro, Brooklyn dac and psu, Bruno Putzeys balanced pre, mod86p dual mono amps, Yamaha NS1000m

  6. #46
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

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    I'm paul.

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    We are all to blame for wanting cheap, so they sell us cheap. My daughter has lived in Beijing for eleven years, so I've seen it change massively in that time. Their underground and rail systems leave us looking like a third world country. Eleven years ago there were thousands of bicycles where my daughter lives and now the area in the middle of the apartment blocks is filled with new cars. People delivering stuff on flat bed pedal driven vehicles are all electric as are all the motor scooters. Down the road at the shopping centre I regularly see several Bentley continental coupes and porsche's. Before I visited China I believed that the communist state owned everything, but now that I have family there I know different. Even during the cultural revolution my son in laws family owned property and still do. People in the west are fed propaganda just like anywhere else. It sickens me the ignorance in the west.
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  7. #47
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulf-2007 View Post
    We are all to blame for wanting cheap, so they sell us cheap. My daughter has lived in Beijing for eleven years, so I've seen it change massively in that time. Their underground and rail systems leave us looking like a third world country. Eleven years ago there were thousands of bicycles where my daughter lives and now the area in the middle of the apartment blocks is filled with new cars. People delivering stuff on flat bed pedal driven vehicles are all electric as are all the motor scooters. Down the road at the shopping centre I regularly see several Bentley continental coupes and porsche's. Before I visited China I believed that the communist state owned everything, but now that I have family there I know different. Even during the cultural revolution my son in laws family owned property and still do. People in the west are fed propaganda just like anywhere else. It sickens me the ignorance in the west.
    The biggest ignorance about China is among Chinese people, all sorts of search terms are banned, indeed their whole understanding of history has been deeply warped and politicised, you can see it clearly when kids come to Uni here, most are far too scared to get engaged in any sort of political discussion.

    Even a lot of mainland Chinese academics working in the UK for some time can be incredibly naive - or disingenuous - in their engagement on topic around the CCP or what it gets up to. Either the brainwashing they get from toddler stage runs very deep, or they are deeply terrified of the consequences of being on the wrong side of the regime (I suspect a bit of both). (We have mainland academics round all the time and sometimes they talk like they think there's a recording device switched on).

    I've spent a fair amount of time in China too, though rather more in Taiwan, and the latter, though Chinese-speaking I feel is culturally far closer to Japan in all sorts of ways - as you would expect from a place that has had a separate history from the Mainland pretty much continuously for 127 years now. The Cultural Revolution all but destoyed traditional Buddhist and Taoist religious practice on the mainland, which together with the doggedly anti-religious CCP has resulted in a dead-eyed populace of 1.3bn in thrall to mass consumerism and technology (I know you can see that here too but it really **is** far worse in China).

    The contrast with both Japan and Taiwan where religious belief or at least religious practice (of the sort an Italian or Irish catholic would be familiar with, until relatively recently anyway) underpins a sense of cultural and moral continuity is highly instructive.

    Does a nation need a moral centre to be successful? I guess time will tell.

  8. #48
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

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    I'm paul.

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    Religion is making a comeback Tom, I'm not getting into a political discussion here.
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  9. #49
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulf-2007 View Post
    Religion is making a comeback Tom, I'm not getting into a political discussion here.
    Only state-sanctioned varieties have an easy ride. As I'm sure you are aware.

  10. #50
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

    Posts: 1,498
    I'm paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Only state-sanctioned varieties have an easy ride. As I'm sure you are aware.
    That's better than our own situation
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

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