Cartridge loading - Denon 103

[Jason P]

Hi all,

Last night I was comparing CD and vinyl, and cam to the conclusion that the vinyl sounded 'thin' compared with CD - not something I'd really clocked previously when using carts other than the 103. I'm currently running in to a MF X-LPS2 phono stage, and wondered if the loading on this was correct for the 103... I've no idea what it is on the X-LP, and haven't been able to find this on the interweb. Would incorrect loading make the 103 lose bass weight? Treble seems fine - imaging is good, but the lower bass registers seem to be non-existant compared with CD. On Paul Simon's 'Late In The Evening' for example, the kick drum and bass seems very recessed. Can't think of anything else that would account for it.

Any thoughts?

Jason

[Gdg]

Maybe simply because the CD has been remastered.
I own Michael Jackson, Off The Wall in three flavours:
* Vinyl, Jap press
* CD not remastered
* CD remastered.
Vinyl and not-remastered CD sound equally poor of... ehm... everything.
More brilliant and bass punch on remastered CD.

[Kris]

Last night I was comparing CD and vinyl

A true comparison cannot be made unless you compare a CD and LP that are known to be cut from the same master. Even then the LP may will be differently equalised on the fly during the cutting of the lacquer depending on the amount of HF or LF information on the master when total playing time of each side is taken into account.

'Cutting' a Cd is a case of pressing a few buttons, anyone can do it. Cutting a lacquer is an art form that takes many years to perfect.

IMO it is impossible to properly compare a CD and an LP.

Kris.

P.s.

On Paul Simon's 'Late In The Evening' for example, the kick drum and bass seems very recessed.

Yeah, probably eq'd at the cutting stage IMO. Otherwise the cartridge would jump out the groove when played.

[Jason P]

OK, I'm not trying to get the same sound from CD and vinyl; I'm aware that differnt masterings will have different sonic character. I've merely noticed a difference (detrimantal) to the sound whereas before, when I've run my ADC XLM, ATOC5 etc. they haven't been thin sounding. Different yes, better sometimes, but never 'wrong'. So my specific question remains - loading for the 103, is this something wildly different to other MC carts?

Marco, I've read in your posts that the 103 requires correct loadind to 'sing' - how would you describe one incorrectly loaded?
EDITED: I've just found out the loading on the X-LP MC stage is 100ohms - good for a 103 or no?

Jason

[Kris]

Sorry Jason

[Marco]

Hi Jason,

Loading value will most certainly affect how a cartridge sounds, but 100 Ohms is pretty much ideal for a 103, as the A23 (designed specifically for the 103) loads it at just a shade over that.

I note that you're using the 103 in a Sumiko, which is a good headshell, but unfortunately its stock mass isn't sufficient, as ideally, a 103 needs (approx) 16.5g at the headshell for optimum performance, which could explain why the sound is rather bass-light.

The Sumiko headshell weighs around 12g, so you'll need to add approximately another 4.5g to the headshell (perhaps using a blob of Blu-Tak or similar?) to get the mass right. 103s can sound quite horrible otherwise: bass-light and rather course and 'spitty' at the top-end.

Also make sure that the arm is bang-on level in terms of VTA, which is very difficult to achieve with the 103 in the Techy arm, unless you're using an extra-thick mat (or combination of mats), as the arm adjustment doesn't have sufficient downwards travel to get the arm absolutely level with a cartridge as 'low-bodied' as a 103. I know this from experience, as I had the same problem!

If VTA is out, and thus sub-optimal, and there is insufficient mass on the headshell, this would definitely explain the type of sound you're getting at the moment. Also try tracking the cartridge at 2.6g, instead of the quoted 'ideal' of 2.5g - optimal VTF varies from system to system.

Try all of the above and let me know how you get on

Marco.

[Jason P]

Kris - no worries! I know what you mean, and I maybe didn't make myself clear enough in the original posting...

Marco - forgot to add, I am using a stick-on weighty-vta spacy thingy wot I got from the 'bay - designed for the 103. Dunno about the mass but it must be at least 3g. My 103 has been nuded, btw.

Jason

[Marco]

There are too many variables then, Jason, for me to give the ideal advice, as I've no idea what effect your "stick-on weighty-vta spacy thingy" is having on the arm... Is VTA definitely bang on level, and I mean anally so?

I would also try adding more mass to the headshell, as I suspect there isn't quite enough.

Marco.

[Jason P]

OK Marco, thanks for that. When I've more time I'll have a serious set-up session to check all the variables; I must admit, having nuded the 103 it's opened up the sound but made it harder to align! At least I know the loading is OK from the phono stage end.

Cheers,

Jason

[blake]

There are so many variables here; the issue could be any number of things. Generally speaking, though, most people with properly set up 103/103R's would not consider them to be bass shy.

I'm assuming you're using the Isokinetic spacer which does weigh 3 grams, but if you've nuded the 103, the plastic body weighs 1.6 grams so you've only bumped up by 1.4 grams. That might be part of the problem-the Denons do perform better in higher mass arms-my experience running them in arms from 14 to 25 gram effective mass is that it just gets better as you increase the mass, which is what Marco is alluding to.

While attaching the cartridge nude to a metal plate may increase detail and sharpen things up it's also quite possible that the cartridge might get a bit more zingy as well, at least that is consistent with what I've read from people who have experimented along those lines.

If your 103 is brand new, there is also the issue of break-in. Out of the box the Denons are actually a bit steely and thin. After about 15 hours there will be a considerable change and then further gradual improvement through to about the 50 hour mark. The change at 15 hours or so is pretty huge though.

I find the ideal tracking weight for the 103R to be almost exactly 2.6 grams. Less than this and I find things get a bit thin and strident and above that a bit muddy. 100 ohms should be fine for loading the stock 103.

As Marco has said, setup is critical. I agree with him that just about dead even for VTA is a pretty decent spot to be. You can read lots of opinions on how the Denon concical is supposedly immune to changes in VTA-frankly, I don't agree with that; I think it's as sensitive to VTA as any other cartridges I've used with more exotic stylus profiles.

Nuding the cartridge and glueing it to the metal plate is pretty much going to necessitate that you align the cantilever/stylus, so unless you are doing that I'd suggest you find/print a protractor that will allow you to do that.

The 103/103R may be cheap, but they are very demanding of tonearm and phono preamp. Getting the right arm, setup and phono preamp will all help in getting the most out of the cartridge.

If you really want a bass champion and can balance out a heavier cartridge, spend the money on an ebony body from Uwe.