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Thread: Noise reduction

  1. #91
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    The Walker Audio idea is a weird one - quite literally an aerial. Oddly enough this is the same idea as that used by Chord Cables in their Tuned ARAY interconnects.
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  2. #92
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by bumpy View Post
    So a donkey didn't win the Derby, so no great surprise there. Could there be inherent value in buying the thoroughbred? I have no idea, but hold an open mind.

    Can anybody intelligently and plausibly describe how an expensive bespoke wire that carries no signal or power (or at least shouldn't) can improve on a plain wire

    Well I cant but there are lots of things in Hi-Fi that work for some people for no good reason.
    if there is no reason for something to work then it won't work. Of course it could work and we don't know the reason but logic dictates that there must be a reason. As I said before if this item does have an effect it isn't going to be for the reason the manufacturer states. That's pretty much the case for all of these 'We've discovered a cause and effect that science has overlooked' products. At best they just introduce some benign distortion, subjectively pleasing, and then say it is their wonder discovery from years R&D and trial and error, and charge a fortune for something that costs them just a few quid to knock out.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  3. #93
    Join Date: Apr 2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    if there is no reason for something to work then it won't work. Of course it could work and we don't know the reason but logic dictates that there must be a reason. As I said before if this item does have an effect it isn't going to be for the reason the manufacturer states. That's pretty much the case for all of these 'We've discovered a cause and effect that science has overlooked' products. At best they just introduce some benign distortion, subjectively pleasing, and then say it is their wonder discovery from years R&D and trial and error, and charge a fortune for something that costs them just a few quid to knock out.
    if there is no reason for something to work then it won't work.

    Nobody would argue with that.

    As I said before if this item does have an effect it isn't going to be for the reason the manufacturer states.

    That's probably true too, but in this day and age how much advertising is actually 100% true?


    At best they just introduce some benign distortion, subjectively pleasing

    This is where your argument falls apart as you personally have now decided on why it might have an effect. Where is your evidence. In my eyes that's not a lot different to any spurious claims made by the manufacturer. Pot calling the kettle black.


    charge a fortune for something that costs them just a few quid to knock out.

    I thought we had already proven that the few quid one doesn't work (donkey Derby)
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  4. #94
    Join Date: Mar 2017

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    Absolutely right Martin and Chris.

    But, in the case of advertising it is virtually all untrue because it relies on innuendo, and association and transference, essentially the use of dishonest psychological techniques to cajole people into behaviour, and then they get competitive about who has the 'best one'.

    This is the predatory nature of capitalism now, and I regard TV ads as an index of the fantasy world belonging to the populous, (the sellers would not spend all that money if it did not work), and the lack of self possession of the populous.

  5. #95
    Join Date: Apr 2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    Absolutely right Martin and Chris.

    But, in the case of advertising it is virtually all untrue because it relies on innuendo, and association and transference, essentially the use of dishonest psychological techniques to cajole people into behaviour, and then they get competitive about who has the 'best one'.

    This is the predatory nature of capitalism now, and I regard TV ads as an index of the fantasy world belonging to the populous, (the sellers would not spend all that money if it did not work), and the lack of self possession of the populous.
    Any normal person takes advertising claims with a pinch of salt Unless of course you're sitting on a very high horse.
    Last edited by bumpy; 15-12-2017 at 12:26.
    Source
    SW1X Universal Music Server UMS I Signature with Power Supply Unit PSU I Signature
    SW1X USB II
    SW1X DAC III Special
    Audiolab 6000 CDT transport
    Amps
    Pre amps -- Hi fi Collective twin mono ladder stepped attenuator, with Charcroft Z-foil and silver wired. And First Watt B1 active no gain buffer.
    Power amps -- Welborne 45 SET monoblocks 1.8W / Decware Taboo 6W / Elekit 300B TU-8600SVK plus further improved components 9W / ICE Power 1000W
    Speakers
    Highly modified Endorphin P17 open baffle speakers containing both vintage and modern alnico drivers and paper cones. All silver wired - 8" Cube Audio FC8 full range drivers and vintage 15" Altec VOTT 416 bass drivers. All sat on Townsend Audio Podium seismic isolation platforms.
    BK Electronics XLS400FF Sub.
    Cabling
    Silver mains cables, interconnects and speaker cables by SW1X
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  6. #96
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by bumpy View Post


    At best they just introduce some benign distortion, subjectively pleasing

    This is where your argument falls apart as you personally have now decided on why it might have an effect. Where is your evidence. In my eyes that's not a lot different to any spurious claims made by the manufacturer. Pot calling the kettle black.


    charge a fortune for something that costs them just a few quid to knock out.

    I thought we had already proven that the few quid one doesn't work (donkey Derby)
    As regards proof it is clear in my post that I was talking in general terms about 'miracle' products and not specifically this one. Many have been independently tested (e.g Entreq) and it has been found that they all they do is add distortion or pick up RFI, which amounts to the same thing. Consequently any claims for improved SQ can only be due to distortion or imagination. Since I do not place much faith in the 'You are imagining it' argument the most likely explanation for a positive subjective result is a benign degradation in the SQ.

    As regards the cheap copy, what is it about the $200 dollar version that makes it more likely to be successful in its intended role? And how much do you think it costs them to make one? If Geoff was to tart his version up a bit and put a sticker price of £100 on it would you then offer it more credibility? What if he charged £1000? A cable that retails at £1000 and looks really good has to be better than the equivalent device knocked up at home from bits lying about, doesn't it?

    Sadly the answer is no. The retail price and cosmetic appearance do not have an automatic relationship to the efficacy of any device. As Dennis points out we are 'conditioned' to believe otherwise. But rejecting this conditioning is not especially difficult.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  7. #97
    Join Date: Apr 2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    As regards the cheap copy, what is it about the $200 dollar version that makes it more likely to be successful in its intended role? And how much do you think it costs them to make one? If Geoff was to tart his version up a bit and put a sticker price of £100 on it would you then offer it more credibility? What if he charged £1000? A cable that retails at £1000 and looks really good has to be better than the equivalent device knocked up at home from bits lying about, doesn't it?

    Sadly the answer is no. The retail price and cosmetic appearance do not have an automatic relationship to the efficacy of any device. As Dennis points out we are 'conditioned' to believe otherwise. But rejecting this conditioning is not especially difficult.
    If your argument was true then a cheap Chinese copy of any component would sound the same as an audiophile product and we could all go home.
    Source
    SW1X Universal Music Server UMS I Signature with Power Supply Unit PSU I Signature
    SW1X USB II
    SW1X DAC III Special
    Audiolab 6000 CDT transport
    Amps
    Pre amps -- Hi fi Collective twin mono ladder stepped attenuator, with Charcroft Z-foil and silver wired. And First Watt B1 active no gain buffer.
    Power amps -- Welborne 45 SET monoblocks 1.8W / Decware Taboo 6W / Elekit 300B TU-8600SVK plus further improved components 9W / ICE Power 1000W
    Speakers
    Highly modified Endorphin P17 open baffle speakers containing both vintage and modern alnico drivers and paper cones. All silver wired - 8" Cube Audio FC8 full range drivers and vintage 15" Altec VOTT 416 bass drivers. All sat on Townsend Audio Podium seismic isolation platforms.
    BK Electronics XLS400FF Sub.
    Cabling
    Silver mains cables, interconnects and speaker cables by SW1X
    Headphones
    HRT HeadStreamer and SennHeiser HD650 headphones

  8. #98
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by bumpy View Post
    If your argument was true then a cheap Chinese copy of any component would sound the same as an audiophile product and we could all go home.
    In the case of a product like this the cheap Chinese copy would perform identically. I think that's the point you are missing. There is no additional 'magic' in the $200 version, whatever the vendor might like you to think.

    In fact that really is the nexus of the problem. How do you sell the same thing over and over again in a saturated market where the technology matured long ago? You invent some sort of secret sauce , some magic, some hidden genius that your product has and that no-one else's does.

    Don't sell it too cheap though, or no-one will believe it's special!
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  9. #99
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    Post deleted...dont call members idiots Chris
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  10. #100
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    It 'could' make a difference with badly designed or faulty kit, buy usually it could only make things worse. Speaking purely from a measured signal to noise POV.

    Whether one actually prefers poorer signal to noise is another issue.
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