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Thread: Naim good or overrated

  1. #21
    Join Date: Jul 2009

    Location: Hampshire, UK

    Posts: 3,662
    I'm Adam.

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    I must admit, I find the whole ‘cult of Naim’ thing is a bit tiresome, so for anyone who’s interested, I ‘ll relate my Naim story and I can disappoint you now by admitting that it contains no envelopes full of twenties, no trips abroad and no badgering or indoctrination!

    I started going to hi-fi shows when I was 13 with my father and I remember Naim from those early days. I think the first setup I heard was a full Linn/Naim six pack system which I recall as being quite impressive, and so I generally found myself wandering into Naim demos from then on. Some were very good; some less so - for example the first time I heard the DBLs at the Bristol Show, I thought they had lovely midrange but I genuinely thought they’d forgotten to connect the bass driver and tweeter. The next time I heard them, they went straight into my all-time favourite loudspeaker top ten and are still there. However, ignoring the audio politics aspect, I never could quite understand why Naim inspired such strongly polarised opinions from most quarters.

    Anyway, fast forward to 2006 and I found myself working for Hi-Fi World magazine. When I joined, there was a huge backlog of review gear and amongst it was the Naim NAC122XS/NAP150XS/Flatcap XS and this unfortunately kept getting side-lined, at least until the day a funny pair of speakers came in. The reviewer had reviewed them and given them a glowing report. They measured well but did present a difficult load to the amplifier. However, on having a second opinion listen in the World listening room (something which Noel, David or I always did) they sounded flat and lifeless. We tried them with various valve amplifiers in the system at the time, plus a couple of transistor designs that we had kicking around with no change. We were almost on the verge of ringing the reviewer to query his findings, when Noel said to me “Give them one last go through the Naim”. I duly dug out the amps, fired them up and suddenly there were the dynamics and the soundstaging that the reviewer had praised! The speakers genuinely sounded totally different and this became the start of a long period where any slightly awkward loudspeakers that passed through our hands always went on the Naim. Yes, there were other amps that subsequently turned out to be as capable, but none were quite as consistent as that setup.

    Move on a little while and, just before Christmas 2007, I found myself without music as my beloved Quantum Electronics amplifiers had thrown a wobbly and were not well. The Naim Supernait had just been reviewed by David Price and it was sitting in the office, boxed and ready to go back to Naim in the New Year. I remember being incredibly impressed by it, so I borrowed it for the Christmas holidays so I wouldn’t be without music. To cut a long story short, it never went back – I wrote Naim a cheque for it instead! Whilst I have other amplifiers, and I’m sure many others will continue to come and go, the Supernait is a keeper – it’s reliable, sturdy, will drive pretty much anything, sounds superb and has all the features I require.

    And finally, there is one other important area that I would like to offer a few thoughts on, namely the power supply upgrades that you “have to buy”. It may actually astonish everyone to know that, actually, no – you don’t have to buy them. There is no team of Naim ‘heavies’ that will come round to your house and force you, nor will your amp stop working if you don’t add a Hi-Cap to it within six months! My experience of the PSU upgrades suggests that they always make a difference, but it’s not always one I have liked. Personally, I think the Supernait sounds better without a Hi-Cap and the 122XS/150XS sounded different with the Flatcap XS but I’d be hard pushed to say which version I actually preferred. On the other hand, I found that same Flatcap XS to really add a new dimension to the performance of the CD5XS CD player.

    So there you are – as far as I’m concerned, Naim are just like any other manufacturer of high quality equipment. I like a lot of their gear, even though there are one or two bits that haven’t floated my boat. I admit that I also like the fact that it’s made in England, about 30 miles from me. Most importantly, I like the sound it makes. Of course, you may not like it and that’s fine, too – no one is forcing anyone else to buy it. But the common method of painting it as some sort of insidious cult is, frankly, bizarre.
    Engineers: fixing problems you didn't know you had in ways you don't understand.

  2. #22
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Out on the wild and windy moors Lancs / Yorks Border

    Posts: 592
    I'm Andy.

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    Good Post!!
    Analogue
    401 / PU7 / AT33ev
    Longdog Audio Quartz turntable PSU
    Longdog Audio MCJ1 - Prototype Phonostage
    Digital
    Innuos Zen Mini Mk 3
    Topping D50s
    Caiman Seg & Dorado
    Cambridge CXC
    Amps
    Tron Seven Linestage
    Bel Canto Set 40 or Nick Gorham built 300B Set Monoblocks
    Speakers
    Tannoy GRF Memory.
    Tannoy ST100.

  3. #23
    Join Date: Feb 2014

    Location: Indianapolis, Indiana USA

    Posts: 779
    I'm Timothy.

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    Yes, nice post Adam. I too find the whole cult thing a bit of a pain as well. And I have never understood why folks get their knickers in a big twist over the whole upgrade thing either. No one is forcing them to do so, it is there if one feels like it is worthwhile. With that being said, yes, pricing is eye watering, especially on this side of the pond. That being said, I have yet to find anything for me that I would trade my Uniti for, it just works and sounds good enough for me.
    Holbo TT-Nag 110-Croft phono/Innuos Zen MK2/LinnenberG Telemann DAC-Preamp/LinnenberG Allegro monoblocs/Duevel Venus/LinnenberG Maestro SE-Senn. 660S DH Labs cabling

    Croft Series 7 amps, WLM La Scala, Naim Uniti1, Naim Nait XS3, Naim ND5XS2, Guru Junior

  4. #24
    RothwellAudio Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeandvan View Post
    ... plus the power amp has been altered by Avondale, like many Naim users, our systems aren't really Naim!
    There used to be a tiny circulation underground magazine called Common Ground which Les Wolstenholme of Avondale Audio used to write in. I learned a lot from this articles and realised what serious engineering short-comings Naim amps had. That's why I'm baffled to hear people say Naim amps are well-engineered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beobloke View Post
    But the common method of painting it as some sort of insidious cult is, frankly, bizarre.
    "Insidious" might be going too far but browsing forums gives the distinct impression that a cult has grown up around Naim with their advocates believing that Naim's designs possess some engineering genius that eludes the rest of the world's manufacturers. Personally, I'm not convinced.

  5. #25
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,786
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    "Insidious" might be going too far but browsing forums gives the distinct impression that a cult has grown up around Naim with their advocates believing that Naim's designs possess some engineering genius that eludes the rest of the world's manufacturers. Personally, I'm not convinced.
    You do see quite a bit of that. But not just with Naim. Everyone is a fanboy for something I suppose.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  6. #26
    Join Date: Dec 2008

    Location: East Riding of Yorkshire these days

    Posts: 4,779
    I'm Shaun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    It's hard, abrasive and two dimensional.
    Yeah, that is exactly how I would have described my 42/110/snaps combo.

  7. #27
    Join Date: Oct 2015

    Location: Durham

    Posts: 426
    I'm Andy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haselsh1 View Post
    Yeah, that is exactly how I would have described my 42/110/snaps combo.
    One of my favourite Naim combos . Problems only arise when people believe their "truth" has to be shared by everyone else. The Flat Earth kinda took that road and a little of that history still lives on. I learned long ago that there are many ways to getting a sound you're happy with and I've never felt the need for others to agree with my choices (or me theirs).

  8. #28
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,859
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby View Post
    One of my favourite Naim combos . Problems only arise when people believe their "truth" has to be shared by everyone else. The Flat Earth kinda took that road and a little of that history still lives on. I learned long ago that there are many ways to getting a sound you're happy with and I've never felt the need for others to agree with my choices (or me theirs).
    My sentiments exactly!
    Barry

  9. #29
    Join Date: Jul 2017

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 44
    I'm Thiha.

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    Having owned quite a few bits of Naim kit over the years (28 to be exact), these are my thoughts:

    1. Like all manufacturers, there some good ones, some excellent ones and some average/mediocre ones
    2. The upgrade path is often very, very expensive for relatively small benefit. I think you have to jump at least two steps up to hear any real improvement and even then, since our ears are all different and hifi is (IMO) very subjective, the "improvement" might only be a "difference" which is neither better or worse, but just different
    3. I serviced all my kit when they reached 10 years of age and to be honest, I did not hear any day and night difference like many Naim fans claim they hear but I did notice that my bank balance had gone down significantly so I guess in that sense, yes, there was a big difference before and after
    4. Trying non-Naim accessories like interconnects or speaker cables did not cause a small nuclear meltdown but they did sound, to my ears, better in some cases to Naim cables.
    5. I'm not convinced that the lower end PSUs actually make any difference and for the cost, you could buy quite a lot of very nice vinyl for your music collection
    6. Different Naim combos sound "best" to different people so everyone can live peacefully side by side, or at least they should, rather than trying to ram down other people's throats what they should be thinking is the "best" combo. Come on, hifi is subjective isn't it?

  10. #30
    Join Date: Sep 2017

    Location: Northampton

    Posts: 177
    I'm Chris.

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    Has anyone got any of the "not so good" ones I can have for free?

    Many thanks in advance

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