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Thread: would anyone loan me an mc sut for a trial please?

  1. #41
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    I would say that at lower price levels a head amp is probably going to work better than the other 2, and that was the way I read it, although I can see it maybe doesnt read that way after rereading.
    Yep, probably should have been clearer bit you know how it is, I knew what I was talking about 🤣🤣

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  2. #42
    Join Date: Apr 2017

    Location: Bristol

    Posts: 339
    I'm Tony.

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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    I would say that at lower price levels a head amp is probably going to work better than the other 2, and that was the way I read it, although I can see it maybe doesnt read that way after rereading.
    Yep, that's how I read it as well and this part of this thread has been really helpful to someone who is planning on buying either a midrange Headamp or SUT.

    My feeling is that given the modest tube phono stage that I plan to use the headamp at this level may be that way to go.
    VPI Scout 1.1, Hana ML, Vanderveen MC10 SUT, WAD Phono3, Rpi3B+/Digione Signature, Xiang Sheng DAC-01, WAD KiT6550 and Reiver Edingdale SR

  3. #43
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Intenso View Post
    Yep, that's how I read it as well and this part of this thread has been really helpful to someone who is planning on buying either a midrange Headamp or SUT.

    My feeling is that given the modest tube phono stage that I plan to use the headamp at this level may be that way to go.
    The best Modestly priced SUT I've heard is the FRT-3, I just couldn't judge what was better/worse difference between the MC stage and the FRT-3 the others I've heard like the Denon 320 seemed to add warmth and bass, that's only in my system though

    The FRT did sound more transparent, in fact I'm probably doing it a disservice, it wasn't apparent when it was in so that's a good thing.

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  4. #44
    Join Date: Apr 2017

    Location: Bristol

    Posts: 339
    I'm Tony.

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    I think the challenge with buying at the mid to lower end of the market is that there is some difference between the price of Headamps and SUTs if buying new.

    For example the Rothwell Headspace is £300 whereas the Rothwell MCL is nearer £500 and will it be that much better?

    It will definitely be less flexible.

    I've already tried a low end SUT the AT630 and it is nowhere near as good as my phono stage's built in MC stage.

    I'd prefer to buy 2nd hand but how often do these items turn up...
    VPI Scout 1.1, Hana ML, Vanderveen MC10 SUT, WAD Phono3, Rpi3B+/Digione Signature, Xiang Sheng DAC-01, WAD KiT6550 and Reiver Edingdale SR

  5. #45
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Intenso View Post
    I think the challenge with buying at the mid to lower end of the market is that there is some difference between the price of Headamps and SUTs if buying new.

    For example the Rothwell Headspace is £300 whereas the Rothwell MCL is nearer £500 and will it be that much better?

    It will definitely be less flexible.

    I've already tried a low end SUT the AT630 and it is nowhere near as good as my phono stage's built in MC stage.

    I'd prefer to buy 2nd hand but how often do these items turn up...
    That's very true. I will be looking for some sort of step up myself once I've finished building my MM valve phonostage. I may even try an FRT-3 again. 2 on eBay for less than £200. That's ridiculous, I sold mine for £250 about a year ago.

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  6. #46
    Join Date: Jul 2016

    Location: Ferndown, Dorset, UK

    Posts: 248
    I'm Brook.

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    Jamie, I have a mate who has a Rock with the same Alphason arm as yourself & I am sure he would be willing to bring it along to compare turntables & put your mind at rest about the arm bearing if nothing else. It is of known great SQ so could prove a useful comparison for you.

  7. #47
    Join Date: Sep 2014

    Location: brighton uk.

    Posts: 4,737
    I'm jamie.

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    hi brook,
    thats a good idea,where's he live?
    My System
    John Wood KT88 Amp.
    Paradise Phono Stage
    Sony TTS-8000 Turntable.
    PMAT-1010 MK6 Tonearm.
    Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
    Sony X555ES Cd Player
    Yamaha NS1000m Speakers

  8. #48
    Join Date: Dec 2015

    Location: Alicante. Spain.

    Posts: 1,885
    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    I'm sorry mate but it seems to me you are drawing universal conclusions here from a very limited set of data - ie headamps [always - inferred] sound better than SUTs.

    You've taken a couple of low-ish end SUTs and a midrange one that's a little down the pack in Hashimoto's pecking order, and come to a conclusion that I don't think is supportable in a wider sense.

    The HA500 is a good piece of kit and I've recommended it myself to people, particularly with Denons, who don't want to spend more than £200-300 on a SUT. But that's where it sits. Against a Denon 320 SUT especially with a DL103 I'd expect it to come through (though I actually have a soft spot for the 320 maybe because I owned one for quite a few years). Perhaps less so against the FR-3 but while a cut above the 320, it's still lowish end in the SUT world, there are several models above it even just from Fidelity Research.

    However even if the Hashimoto was an HM3, all other things being optimized, it should easily be more refined, rounded, detailed and vivid than a HA500. I certainly wouldn't expect duff treble, no bass and a bloated midrange. If that was the case then something is wrong - as Geoff says, cable effects perhaps or something else gone wrong. I would expect the HM3, if properly matched to the cartridge and a decent tube phono stage, to pull well ahead of a HA500, not as a matter of taste but as a matter of obviousness. (Though the 'if' - the matching - is rather critical).

    I had the DIY version of the MF SUT, (the S&B TX103 - same transformers inside) and it was indeed superb, but while convenient and highly adjustable it was no better than an HM7 indeed that's what I replaced mine with. (Though if it had had more than 1:20 max ratio I'd have kept it).

    I now don't have to worry about SUTs or cables or positioning, as I have a very nice set of SUTs (four settings, plus a three-step gain control setting - a veritable Swiss Army knife of input options) built into my EAR 912. Though I still use one in my study system when using an SPU into a Schiit Mani, there the MM input is significantly better than the MC side (as is commonly the case where both options are offered) so a SUT comes into its own. This is audible even with a modest one (Ortofon 2-15k acquired from Barry and currently on loan to Jaimie).

    Anyway I would still argue you are drawing a big conclusion from limited data. Even the very high-end Aurorasound Vida phono stage which I owned for several years sounded significantly better with a decent SUT rather than the MC input (I used quite a number of SUTs into this including a Kondo AN-S6c, the S&B mentioned above, and of course the HM7). This was something I demonstrated regularly to people when I had the Vida.

    Incidentally I would caution Jaimie from making the same conclusion, neither the Art Audio SUTs he borrowed nor my 2-15k are what I would describe as high-end SUTs (I've had the Art Audios in my setup on a seven-way SUT shootout written up a few years ago, and they performed ok, but came in well down the list). And I would still recommend he compare a SUT + good tube phono stage vs what's in his Nakamichi.
    I agree with Tom. My Hashimoto HMX is basically the HM7 wth a different response, higher top end extension and slightly less lower end. It is certainly not limited at either extreme and is sublime across the board. I am however, as is Tom, using it with possibly one of the best phonostages available, and in truth the difference with or without the SUT is very very subtle.
    Technics SP10 mk2
    Jan Allaerts MC 1 Boron mk1 cart
    Miyajima Shilabe cart
    Hashimoto HM-X SUT
    Siggwan (gimballed not unipivot) Cocobola 12"
    Aurorasound Vida LCR Phonostage
    The Truth linestage
    Dave Slagle Autoformer Volume Controller
    Cary 805c SET amps
    Audio Note ANe-SPX speakers
    Townshend Isolda speaker cables
    Cardas Golden Presence interconnects

  9. #49
    Join Date: Jul 2016

    Location: Ferndown, Dorset, UK

    Posts: 248
    I'm Brook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie123 View Post
    hi brook,
    thats a good idea,where's he live?
    He is in Lancing Jamie, not far at all, & I would come along too if you don't mind.

  10. #50
    Join Date: Dec 2015

    Location: Alicante. Spain.

    Posts: 1,885
    I'm Adrian.

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    If money is tight but performance important id look at Dave Slagle, who i believe can do them and I've read very good things about them. If they are anything like his TVC's then they should be outstanding.
    Technics SP10 mk2
    Jan Allaerts MC 1 Boron mk1 cart
    Miyajima Shilabe cart
    Hashimoto HM-X SUT
    Siggwan (gimballed not unipivot) Cocobola 12"
    Aurorasound Vida LCR Phonostage
    The Truth linestage
    Dave Slagle Autoformer Volume Controller
    Cary 805c SET amps
    Audio Note ANe-SPX speakers
    Townshend Isolda speaker cables
    Cardas Golden Presence interconnects

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