Moving Coil Cartridge loading

[steve-z]

It’s interesting to hear other knowledgeable people’s views on this subject, just been reading through an email from NJC Audio sent to Phil Bishop who has just ordered one of their Reference SUTs to go with his NJC MM Phono Stage. It appears from NJCs own tests with MC cartridges that some cartridges respond noticeably to changes of load impedance and on some it makes virtually no difference, there are no hard and fast rules, their advice is to experiment with different load settings, see if it changes cartridge characteristics and then use the setting which sounds correct or to the personal taste of the listener, solid advice I think.


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[martinjohn308]

I’ve been using moving coils since 1978 with the Supex 900E at that time I used the modules that came with the pre amps firstly Meridian 101 and then Naim 32 both had inbuilt boards.

Fast forward 30 years then moved onto Graham Slee Fanfare which was slightly better than the Naim boards. Not a night and day thing, then about 2010 I bought a Whest Audio30R which was a big improvement able to adjust the ohms by that time I had a Dynavector DV 20 L swiftly followed in a Micro Benz Wood SL an very good cartridge.

I finally I started talking and emailing Simon and I decided to buy the Paradise this was an exceptional phono stage an absolute gem and Simon attention to detail to source all the components and matching the values is such a painstaking job but well worth the time.

I moved onto a Kiseki Blue NS Simon sent me a handful of different value resistors for the loading which I played around with for the better part of 6 weeks. Emailed Kiseki and they recommended 400 ohms loading I found the cartridge somewhat suppressed then tried opposite end of the scale 100 ohms found that to bright moved onto 330 ohms Sound was better than the 400 ohm setting. Finally tried 220 ohms which to me was the sweet spot so I told Simon and he told me to buy the Z foil resistors which I fitted them, so I do think some cartridges do alter with loading values.

Regards,

Martin

[RothwellAudio]

Emailed Kiseki and they recommended 400 ohms loading I found the cartridge somewhat suppressed then tried opposite end of the scale 100 ohms found that to bright moved onto 330 ohms Sound was better than the 400 ohm setting. Finally tried 220 ohms which to me was the sweet spot so I told Simon and he told me to buy the Z foil resistors which I fitted them, so I do think some cartridges do alter with loading values.

It's interesting that your findings are totally opposite to what most people report when experimenting with load resistors. People usually say that a higher impedance will give a brighter and more dynamic sound, while a low impedance gives a softer, duller sound.
The OP is convinced his cartridge has a subdued treble due to low impedance loading.

[steve-z]

Had a discussion by email this morning with another forum member Dave (DSJR) relating to my depressed treble issue with the ATF7/Mani combination. One comment he made during our discussions was it might be an idea to replace the Rega wool mat with an acrylic mat as a possible way to give the treble a bit of a boost. It just so happens that I already have an acrylic mat to hand, I used it to good effect on an Audio Technica ATLP120 deck I had a couple of years ago. It’s made by a company called XAudio Designs the mat being labelled the XTM1, it’s matte black acrylic with a machined recess for the record label and an edge recess so it contacts where the run in groove ends. Because the mat is solid it enables me to use the Michell clamp properly with the supplied felt washer over the spindle, something I could not do with the Rega or Origin Live mats due to the size of the hole in the glass platter.
The sound with this setup has definitely given a slight lift to the treble region with the added benefit of firming the bass too, so all good. Thankfully the acrylic mat is exactly the same thickness as the Rega wool mat so no change in vta to worry about.
The improvements in the treble will probably dissuade me from spending more money on another phono stage which has to be good news, so a worthwhile fix with no money spent, excellent:-)


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[Phil Bishop]

I have tried to understand all the fuss and work out how SUTs work but it's all a bit beyond me.

That said, I have just received a SUT for my MM phono stage from a small outfit I rate very highly. Both stages have lots of adjustability. The MM phono stage has variable capacitance settings. I have scrolled through them with MM cartridges and can tell absolutely no audible difference between them. However, connecting the SUT and switching to MC, dialing through the numerous resistance and gain settings on both units yields clearly audible differences, most obviously in treble suppression. The key now is to work out which one is optimum! I won't get too anal about it - if it sounds right it is right :-)

Cheers

Phil

[Firebottle]

I have tried to understand all the fuss and work out how SUTs work but it's all a bit beyond me.

Think of the MC cartridge and SUT as a complete unit, in effect a 'super cartridge' that has enough output to connect directly to an MM input.

MC = moving coil, the SUT is in effect the extension of the 'coil' that gives the high output, but to keep the mass down at the cartridge the SUT needs to be a separate unit.

(Before anyone says I know that there is an SPU that includes the SUT at the cartridge end, but this is high mass.)

[RothwellAudio]

I have tried to understand all the fuss and work out how SUTs work but it's all a bit beyond me.

It's hardly surprising if anyone finds the subject confusing - there's so much misleading (or plain wrong) information circulating. In my opinion the biggest mistake is thinking that the transformer's job is "impedance matching" the cartridge to the phonostage, or that the cartridge needs to see a particular load.
Anyway, I'll not get into refuting that now - too big a subject

[steve-z]

Well it's unfortunate I have to report that the acrylic mat "fix" has not proved fruitful and has just thrown up another problem, making use of the Michell clamp just makes the acrylic mat dish upward so there is precious little in contact with the glass platter, so the std Rega wool mat is now back on. This has meant the treble depression has now been thrown back into relief making vinyl listening unsatisfying, in fact downright irritating. Due to this I've decided to sell the Mani and look for a more suitable replacement, what that will be will depend on how much my eBay auction on the Mani raises, their popularity and the current lack of availability may mean a decent amount will be forthcoming, the last Mani sold on eBay just a few days ago made over £50 more than the new retail price, probably due to it being the only Mani on eBay at the time, currently there is one other being auctioned as well as mine so chances of a really high price will be lessened. The Rega Fono MC would be my ultimate aim if I should get a really good return on the Mani, if not I may have to aim lower for a replacement, possibly a Cambridge CP2 which would be a good aesthetic match for my CXA60 amp, some years back I had a Cambridge 640P phono stage which worked very well for several years with the ATOC7 MC I had at the time, the CP2 is the second incarnation of the 640P which should be even better developed, I'll be making a decision on which way I intend to move once the auction finishes in 3 days time.


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[steve-z]

Well guys, for once fortune has favoured me, mainly I think due to the current non availability of new Schiit Manis mine sold on ebay today for a pretty amazing amount, far more than I could have anticipated, so much so that the Rega Fono MC is within reach. In fact I picked up a loan unit this afternoon from my local Rega dealer to audition at home until next Tuesday.
Once set up I left it on the standard Rega factory settings of 100ohms and 1000picofarads and the lower of the 2 gain settings then settled down for an extended listening session this evening.
Firstly may I say Andrew Rothwell was correct about the low impedance on the Mani causing a drop in output, the Rega has more volume on the low gain setting than the Mani had on the high setting. (Edit: I later realised the factory Rega setting for gain was “high”, have now reset it to low, but even on low it is still marginally louder than the Mani was on high.)
Well how does the ATF7/Rega combo sound ? In a word, brilliant, the lost treble is back to the proper level and I can now actually hear an accurate rendition of cymbals and other metallic percussion, just listened to a half speed mastered version of the 2009 remix of Tubular Bells by Mike Oldfield, the high harmonics and overtones of the metallic percussion were the best I’ve ever experienced off a vinyl record, it was tear jerking.
The combination seems to have no vices and is now just an open window into the music. The Mani on MC made the ATF7 underperform, now it can show its true quality and show it to be quite a bargain in moving coil terms. Thanks to Dave DSJR for the recommendation of both items, he really got it right, great stuff


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[montesquieu]

Well guys, for once fortune has favoured me, mainly I think due to the current non availability of new Schiit Manis mine sold on ebay today for a pretty amazing amount, far more than I could have anticipated, so much so that the Rega Fono MC is within reach. In fact I picked up a loan unit this afternoon from my local Rega dealer to audition at home until next Tuesday.
Once set up I left it on the standard Rega factory settings of 100ohms and 1000picofarads and the lower of the 2 gain settings then settled down for an extended listening session this evening.
Firstly may I say Andrew Rothwell was correct about the low impedance on the Mani causing a drop in output, the Rega has more volume on the low gain setting than the Mani had on the high setting.
Well how does the ATF7/Rega combo sound ? In a word, brilliant, the lost treble is back to the proper level and I can now actually hear an accurate rendition of cymbals and other metallic percussion, just listened to a half speed mastered version of the 2009 remix of Tubular Bells by Mike Oldfield, the high harmonics and overtones of the metallic percussion were the best I’ve ever experienced off a vinyl record, it was tear jerking.
The combination seems to have no vices and is now just an open window into the music. The Mani on MC made the ATF7 underperform, now it can show its true quality and show it to be quite a bargain in moving coil terms. Thanks to Dave DSJR for the recommendation of both items, he really got it right, great stuff


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Glad you got sorted. I use a Mani in my study system and actually rate it rather highly on moving magnet. I have a couple of pretty decent step up transformers and with these it seems to me to punch well above its weight too. But I guess the Fono is a one box solution.