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Thread: Class D

  1. #51
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Gerrards Cross

    Posts: 1,987
    I'm Tony.

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    The main drawback with most PWM switching amps (Which you guys are calling class 'd') is bandwidth and poor bass performance, What you can't be serious?

    Pretty much all the switching amps (Ncore, Nord, most Icepower (not all), Nuforce etc are limited to around 50Khz +/-3db which just equates to the slightly more than the second harmonic. Over the years I have come to realise that to have true three dimensional sound with textural layering one of the pre requisites is a decent fifth harmonic bandwidth 100Khz minimum, (though 2.4Ghz maybe a little extreme Mr D'agostino!)

    It is not that the switchers are not solid sounding or powerful in any way, they are also clean, dynamic and very quiet, but on the whole they just lack real soul and the ability to really move you imho

    They are a couple of examples which are staggering good, however they are cost prohibitive. That said some of the older smaller Tripath modules PROPERLY implemented sounded wonderful other not so.

    Again with all circuitry it is a simple exercise in understanding exactly what you are trying to achieve and examining just what influences outside emi/rfi, internal power supply structures, circuit pathways etc are all doing in the final analysis imho.

    Well yes much in the same way a bass head is all about lower bass say 90-40Hz that chest thumping club like thwack, not real low end performance that moves you and integrates with the rest of the frequencies in a leaner manner.

    Recently we had a well known musician drop off his pair of mighty .5Kw monoblock American pwm amps for repair (power supply board failure due to wrong voltage rated caps (there is a clue) He traded his Linn Klimax twins for them

    When he collected I hooked them up to a respectable system and he was smiling from ear to ear, totally convinced that its was top of the pile amplification wise.

    I asked if he was up for a Pepsi Challenge, I suggest that a 100Wrms dual mono class a/b amp would make his pair of beasts sound rather thin, nasely and limp wristed in the bass department, plus a much better sense of rhythmic fluidity, he scoffed and easily accepted the challenge.

    Mind you after 30 seconds he was somewhat dumbfounded as to why what he had just heard from his pair of prized lean mean switching machines was made to sound very average.

    Cost wise they were very comparable, not trying to push an agenda here, merely to agree with a lot of what has been said, a decent a/b with best most PWM switching amps currently.

    However depends on what you are looking for, a PWN is at least 85% efficient, much smaller foot print, easier to place at home with the Bula Ballbreaker threatening to place you nad's in a rusty rotavator at 500 rpm.

    That said my personal amplifier is a PWM switching amp which I wouldn't trade for a pair of Dartzeel Mono's (they are exceptional with the right speakers) though its bandwidth is the sixth harmonic, switching time is 24ns and I can select a specific algorithm for the switching frequency up to 1.8Ghz (virtually all of the switching amps are around 500Mhz which is about the same switching point of the SMPS they thought is this will cancel out any of the switching noise this is so far outside the pass-band it is inconsequential

    It uses two custom built TX's 1.5Kva in a dual rail configuration.

    It has wonderfully sweet and lucid mid band, quality tight, articulate accurate bass to whatever the speaker is connected to can muster, including Apogee's (20hm lowest load). A a big open transparent window at the top, it is neither cold nor warm, but just right for what I like.

    Clive comments on headroom or power are close to the mark imho
    Coherent Systems
    Real high end sound with musicality not hifi

  2. #52
    Join Date: Mar 2011

    Location: Readimg

    Posts: 83
    I'm George.

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    Of course not all agree and the nCore amps have made a major impact in the amplifier market with many major companies like Bel Canto, Jeff Rowland and Theta using them. They have a really flat response to the frequencies and do no 'juice up' the sound. Some like that some do not.

  3. #53
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 2,413
    I'm Hugo.

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    I can't speak for other implementations of switching amplifier designs, but anyone coming to the North West Audio Show on 23/24 June (see www.audioshow.co.uk ) will be able to hear Lyngdorf's TDAI2170 digital amplifier, which I am demonstrating in my room. I reckon anyone harbouring preconceptions about what switching amplifiers can and cannot do, and how they sound, will be pleasantly surprised.

  4. #54
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Sheffield - UK

    Posts: 5,979
    I'm Mark.

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    Does it also do room correction Hugo - I know some Lyngdorf amps do?

    100% Analogue

  5. #55
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 2,413
    I'm Hugo.


  6. #56
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Sheffield - UK

    Posts: 5,979
    I'm Mark.

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    Well I look forward to hearing that very much .
    ——-
    Tony, would that be one of the TAD amps you are referring to in post #51 as your personal amp?

    100% Analogue

  7. #57
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Gerrards Cross

    Posts: 1,987
    I'm Tony.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YNWaN View Post
    Well I look forward to hearing that very much .
    ——-
    Tony, would that be one of the TAD amps you are referring to in post #51 as your personal amp?
    Hello Ynwan

    The TAD M2500 MKII is a decent implementation of the form without question and it puts to shame many significantly high priced traditional alternatives. however my personal amplifier is something I have been working on for around 12 years (I must really finish it one day lol)

    The layout structure is similar, however the key for sound imho is the ability to control the switching frequencies and the have the correct analogue reconstruction filters in place to really make a PWM amplifier work. Along with all the usual amplifier requirements.

    In the same way a really good class a/b doesn't sound like a solid state amplifier (And it doesn't sound like valves only valves do that!) but it sound effortless fluid and natural. A correctly implemented switching amp doesn't sound like a PWM amplifier again it sound natural, fluid and articulate. Again a long way from the Devialet sound thankfully.

    Does not stop me appreciating other amplifier designs in any way either, I do like valves, again done well they can sound wonderful personal favorites are 2A3's a superbly musical valve and 211's for the grunt and allowing you to power more appealing loudspeakers.
    Coherent Systems
    Real high end sound with musicality not hifi

  8. #58
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 3,009
    I'm Tom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ammonite Acoustics View Post
    I can't speak for other implementations of switching amplifier designs, but anyone coming to the North West Audio Show on 23/24 June (see www.audioshow.co.uk ) will be able to hear Lyngdorf's TDAI2170 digital amplifier, which I am demonstrating in my room. I reckon anyone harbouring preconceptions about what switching amplifiers can and cannot do, and how they sound, will be pleasantly surprised.
    I was pretty impressed into Tannoys with a Lyngdorf SDA2175, an earlier generation of Lyngdorf techology. Better than just about any other so-called class D amp I've heard, characteristic of the best of them is its mix of abilities strong in the bass and clean in the treble, but unfortunately even that Lyngdorf was some extent extent the emotional component that a good valve amp has in the midrange that enables you to forgive their other foibles. I am keen to hear the next generation Lyngdorf though.
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Pre EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 / Ikeda IT-407 tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Ortofon SPU Royal N, Ikeda 9C III, SAEC/Excel C3; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0, Sonovox MC-4 1.0, Edison '78' 4.0 conical, and Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78, switchable in from tape loop; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily modded AN Kit DAC + Mutec MC3+USB.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Pass Aleph 'Mini'; preamp - Firebottle custom; Vinyl: Garrard 401 with AT1503 tonearm and vintage Ortofon SL-15e with matching Ortofon 2-15k SUT; Phono Stage: Firebottle Plus; Digital - Trichord Genesis III CDP + Arcam rBlink; Schiit Multibit DAC.

  9. #59
    Join Date: Mar 2014

    Location: Welsh Marches

    Posts: 222
    I'm Martin.

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    Has anyone tried the Primare digital amps? I'm quite interested in the A34.2, which got good reviews in HiFi News. My current amp is the conventional A30.2 fed by a Pre32R.

  10. #60
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: Middlesex, UK

    Posts: 3,287
    I'm Alex.

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    Just in case anyone is thinking that solid state Class D audio amplifiers are a relatively new idea:

    Sinclair X-20 by A60man, on Flickr
    Spendorman

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