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Thread: thought- Can equalisation be used to make cheap gear sound more "fancy"

  1. #11
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    undoubtedly. If I was listening to an unfamiliar system when the speakers are changed I have no doubt I'd hear it. I'd expect 2 amps to be indistinguishable at first, but I'd damn well hope I could hear the difference between a solid state and tube

    It would appear that in the 80s Bob carver challenged Stereophile that he could make one of his solid state amps sound like any amp of their choosing. They dutifully chose a valve amp that they felt would be the most dissimilar and difficult to emulate. On short notice, Carver had his (comparatively cheap) solid state sounding indistinguishable.

    It is undeniable, however, that Bob had a lot more at his disposal than an EQ. The Stereophile article in question talks of him needing to match the harmonics etc, which is almost definitely not achievable with an EQ

    I have a firstwatt and valve preamp that I've been squirreling away for quite some time. I may have to get my hands on a reference mic and EQ to experiment with this myself

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1200reasons View Post


    then why hasn't anyone claimed the $10,000? We say "the differences are.....", but then no one has actually sat down and identified any audible differences (in the at least 13 years of the challenge)


    I
    The challenge seems to have been mainly in car audio. So no valve amps, no boutique exotica. And as he didn't keep records so it is hard to say what else went on. It isn't even clear if anyone did try a valve vs solid state challenge.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    as he didn't keep records so it is hard to say what else went on. It isn't even clear if anyone did try a valve vs solid state challenge.
    This is thoroughly annoying. It really decreases the value of the test when there's no data recorded. Bob carver managed to fool Stereophile, but without a solid background in amp making, I don't think I can expect to meaningfully replicate his results. At some stage in the future I'll get my hands on the gear to try this myself... but I suspect that I won't care by then. Just a fun idea to play around with

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatmarley View Post
    It's very hard to hear differences with an unfamiliar system, unless they are quite large differences. Until I've lived with something for at least a week or two, I'd say I'm not 100% familiar with It's sound.
    Exactly. Sometimes I have left my system alone for months before making a change.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1200reasons View Post
    This is thoroughly annoying. It really decreases the value of the test when there's no data recorded. Bob carver managed to fool Stereophile, but without a solid background in amp making, I don't think I can expect to meaningfully replicate his results. At some stage in the future I'll get my hands on the gear to try this myself... but I suspect that I won't care by then. Just a fun idea to play around with
    The Bob Carver thing was quite different. He set up a null test between his amp and the valve amp he had to emulate and then tweaked his amp until he could barely hear anything through the speaker, i.e the difference in output from both amps was next to nothing.

    The listening tests to determine if he had succeeded were not done blind, and I've read that the mods Carver did to his amp to make this work meant it was no longer unconditionally stable and would not have lasted very long before it blew a gasket.

    In short: no free lunches.
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  6. #16
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    It costs $200 to take the test and you need to be on the East coast of the US, so that's me out. I'm not sure he's still doing them anyway.

    A large proportion of the listeners were tested together (presumably in a large room) which would hardly be conducive to hearing differences. I don't think they paid the $200 though. The website does say headphones are allowed and I'm dead certain that identifying different headphone amps through my HD800 would be easy. I tried EQ once and it just clouded the sound. I wouldn't be so confident testing speaker amps in a large room.

    I'm not sure quick-fire ABX works anyway. When I did sighted AB listening tests between analogue tuners and digital streams I couldn't tell the difference, yet I enjoy listening to the analogue tuners and quickly tune out (sorry!) when using internet radio. I can't tell you why as most of my music is digital and that's what I'm used to.

  7. #17
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    I suspect you can make an amp that matches speakers better sound like an amp that doesn’t using EQ, but you won’t fix a mismatch with EQ in my view.
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  8. #18
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    Bob Carver made the claim that he could 'tune' or 'voice' his amplifier so that it would be indistinguishable from any chosen amplifier in a blind listening test.

    I believe this challenge was tested by Stereophile magazine who chose the Mark Levinson ML-2 amplifier for Bob Carver to mimic. I don't know if the result was successful.
    Barry

  9. #19
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    Talk of bob Carter.emulating other amps with one of his own throws up some interesting questions.
    Chiefly, if all amps can be made to sound the same...why bother developing your own circuit at all?
    Why not copy a reasonable design cheaply then increase costs to fleece customers?

    My own experience go's only as far as attempting equalization of a pretty rough and bright sounding Sansui receiver from the late 70s
    with a quite capable ADC 12 band graphic equaliser....with radical and refined settings of the sliders I was never fooled
    into thinking the sound was anything better than cheap.

    Nige.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sumday View Post
    Talk of bob Carter.emulating other amps with one of his own throws up some interesting questions.
    Chiefly, if all amps can be made to sound the same...why bother developing your own circuit at all?
    Why not copy a reasonable design cheaply then increase costs to fleece customers?

    My own experience go's only as far as attempting equalization of a pretty rough and bright sounding Sansui receiver from the late 70s
    with a quite capable ADC 12 band graphic equaliser....with radical and refined settings of the sliders I was never fooled
    into thinking the sound was anything better than cheap.

    Nige.
    Bob Carter lives next door but one to me. Honestly!
    Do you mean Bob Carver?

    The Bob Carver challenge thing sounds intriguing.
    Make different amps sound alike with just EQ?
    That's bollocks!

    To make a SS amp sound like a valved amp requires a knowledge of how to emulate a transformer with a certain degree of signal saturation. The degree of saturation with the valve amp is totally dependent on the quality of the ironwork (ie transformer) and its laminations.
    If you can emulate the performance of a valve amp with a certain degree of transformer saturation then you're some way towards achieving it, but by EQ?
    Nah! That's fairytale bollocks and bullshit!

    What does "go's" mean?
    Do you mean "goes"?
    Chris



    Common sense isn't anymore!

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