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Thread: Sound leakages before the track starts playing

  1. #1
    Join Date: May 2010

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    I'm Alex.

    Default Sound leakages before the track starts playing

    On some records, when the cartridge drops to the lead-in groove, I can hear the 'phantom' split second opening sounds, which are quiet but still audible. After that, the music starts in full volume. I'm not sure what's causing this 'sneak preview' playback? Is it the worn out grooves? Or is it some pressing anomaly?
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  2. #2
    Join Date: Sep 2013

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    I'm Chris.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magiccarpetride View Post
    On some records, when the cartridge drops to the lead-in groove, I can hear the 'phantom' split second opening sounds, which are quiet but still audible. After that, the music starts in full volume. I'm not sure what's causing this 'sneak preview' playback? Is it the worn out grooves? Or is it some pressing anomaly?
    This also occurs on some CD's, for instance Creams Wheels of Fire,what is called print through, an artifact of analog transfer, can be heard on the track Spoonful in particular. Print through is explained here by the Audio Engineering Society
    http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/3mtape/printthrough.pdf

  3. #3
    Join Date: Apr 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Light Dependant Resistor View Post
    ................ Spoonful in particular......
    Totally outstanding track, especially live. Sorry OP, back on piste.............
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  4. #4
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    Sometimes known as pre-echo, as Chris says it is an artifact of the master tape; when wound on the reel the proximity of one circumference of the tape against another can lead to the signal magnetising the next layer slightly, this is the ghost image that you hear.

    Nothing to do with the disc or pressing.

  5. #5
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebottle View Post
    Sometimes known as pre-echo, as Chris says it is an artifact of the master tape; when wound on the reel the proximity of one circumference of the tape against another can lead to the signal magnetising the next layer slightly, this is the ghost image that you hear.

    Nothing to do with the disc or pressing.
    Not quite. When a record is cut, ideally the groove pitch should be constantly adjusted so that a loud musical signal (that is a large groove excursion) does not cause the vinyl to 'slew', whereby a faint copy is superimposed on the previous neighbouring groove. If this is not done properly it too is perceived as a pre-echo.
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  6. #6
    Join Date: Sep 2017

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    I also saw something like this is the film The Matrix. It was described as Deja Vu. It's when the machines change something.

  7. #7
    Join Date: Nov 2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Not quite. When a record is cut, ideally the groove pitch should be constantly adjusted so that a loud musical signal (that is a large groove excursion) does not cause the vinyl to 'slew', whereby a faint copy is superimposed on the previous neighbouring groove. If this is not done properly it too is perceived as a pre-echo.
    Could you explain how information from one part of the groove gets into part of the groove it runs next to?

    When the Master lacquer the cutter is running in from outside edge to center, therefor how does the sound get transferred into another part of the spriralling groove which has already
    been cut after the cutter has moved on ?

    Just wondered because it is not how I perceive that pre echo to get onto vinyl, has to be from the master tape as outlined above surely ?
    Last edited by Cas; 14-10-2017 at 10:55.
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  8. #8
    Join Date: Sep 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cas View Post
    Could you explain how information from one part of the groove gets into part of the groove it runs next to?

    When the Master lacquer is cut is the cutter not running in from outside edge to center, therefor how does the the sound get transferred into another part of the spriralling groove which has already
    been cut after the cutter has moved on ?

    Just wondered because it is not how I perceive that pre echo to get onto vinyl, has to be from the master tape as outlined above surely ?
    Hi Chris
    This You Tube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8SKbxxsjOY shows there is a preview look at the master tape that can assist the cutting process,

    Barry I think has revealed that the preview process might also in some circumstance faintly transfer to the cutting head. ( not an easy moment to get ones own head around ) Meaning the preview might just be being heard,

    But the main reason of print through is tape storage as I explained, and Alan - Firebottle refined. A good mastering engineer when transferring the analog tape to say CD could choose to edit out the print through, but in some ways it is more original having it there I think.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    When the record laquer is cut, a heated cutter is used to cut (or 'plough') the groove in the laquer material. In cutting the groove the material is not only cut in depth but the material is 'heaved' laterally to a small extent. Normally the cutting engineer will ensure that the groove spacing is such that a heavily modulated groove will not affect the previous neighbouring groove. But if the previous neighbouring groove is silent, such as the lead-in groove to a track, one will hear the effect of the heavily modulated groove.
    Last edited by Barry; 13-10-2017 at 20:42.
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

  10. #10
    Join Date: Aug 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    When the record laquer is cut, a heated cutter is used to cut (or 'plough') the groove in the laquer material. In cutting the groove the material is not only cut in depth but the material is 'heaved' laterally to a small extent. Normally the cutting engineer will ensure that the groove spacing is such that a heavily modulated groove will not affect the previous neighbouring groove. But if the previous neighbouring groove is silent, such as the leadin groove to a track, one will hear the effect of the heavily modulated groove.
    And that explanation explains it perfectly for me. Ever thought of being a Technical Author Barry ?
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