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Thread: Cantilever 'haze'

  1. #11
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

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    I'm Geoff.

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    I've had quite a few Deccas and never experienced any problems due to quality control. Nor have I found the cartridges difficult to set up.

    They do give a perception of 'speed' of response to the sound, which is seldom replicated by other cartridges, although I will say the ZYX R100 H 02 moving coil item seems to manage this effect rather well.

  2. #12
    Join Date: Sep 2014

    Location: brighton uk.

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    I'm jamie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I agree, the Decca is far easier to set up than the 2M.
    I kept thinking this is too easy, I must be doing something wrong! Lol
    My System/ Yamaha NS1000M speakers, Townsend Elite rock 2 turntable,,Alphason HR-100S-MCS,Zeta tonearms,Denon 103SA Cartridge ,Sony 700ES Amp,Sony X555ES CD Player, Nakamichi ca5 pre amp ,

  3. #13
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

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    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie123 View Post
    i set mine to 1.8 as john wright advised.
    How's it going with the Decca now you've had time to 'acclimatise' Jamie?

  4. #14
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 3,275
    I'm James.

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    Everyone should listen to a well set up Decca cartridge, it is an education of what can be achieved with a cartridge, not all good I hasten to say, but when they hit the spot they are the most exciting cartridge on the planet and can make your jaw drop.
    VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T Tonearm / 2M Black /Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Spendor SP2

  5. #15
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 16,548
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2kings View Post
    I don't have any problems with all my SC4Es.
    I find them easy to align with a proper protractor.
    Agreed - I have never had any problems with any of the Deccas I have (Mk. III, Mk. IV (SC4E), Mk. V and Mk. VI). In principle Deccas are no more difficult to set up than any other cartridge, but the installation can't be rushed - just as time and care should be taken with the setting up of any cartridge.

    Where Deccas can be fussy is what to do with the 'fourth' wire, and with the choice of phonostage (which needs to have adequate overload headroom). Owing to the enormous sample-to-sample variation, due to sloppy workmanship and quality control, in order to obtain a decent performance some Deccas need to be pampered more than others. And reliability used to be pretty variable as well, because of poor quality control. This was recognised by Decca in the Mk. IV series with the better samples being selected and given an 'S' prefix (as in SH4E, and SC4E). This practice continued with the Mk. V series with the better samples being designated 'Grey' (or 'Export'), or the 'Maroon', the latter of which were built on a separate production line with more care and attention taken with assembly.

    Light tonearm damping can be helpful, but is not IMO essential.
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

  6. #16
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

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    I'm Tom.

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    Ikeda made a cartridge with effectively no cantilever before reverting to more traditional designs (as in short cantilever rather than none), and the relatively (or at least, comparatively) mass market Dynavector 17D similarly had a only tiny cantilever similarly sized to the one in the Decca, I'm sure there are others. So it's not as if no-one else has had a go.

    The Decca's mix of compliance has always worried me and I suspect it's the reason why it's so fussy about arms and damping.

    Beyond that the idea of widespread 'cantilever haze' smells of marketing bollocks to me - as in everything the heart of the matter is the execution, and there are some cracking long cantilevered cartridges around. If haze was a proper thing then every Lyra should sound rubbish - which (even if they aren't your taste, and the are no longer mine) they don't!
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Pre EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 / Ortofon 309 Limited tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Ortofon SPU Royal N + Shure M3D Jico stylus; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0 retipped by Ana Mighty Sound bamboo cantilever, Spirit '78' 3.0 conical from Ana, also vintage GE VRII, Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78, switchable in from tape loop; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily modded AN Kit DAC + Mutec MC3+USB.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Duncan 'Tuberhunter' 200w class D; preamp - Pass DCB1; Vinyl: Garrard 401 with AT1503 tonearm and vintage SPU-GE; SUTs - Ortofon 2-15k & Bob's Devices; Phono Stage: Schiit Mani; Digital - Trichord Genesis III CDP + Arcam rBlink; Schiit Multibit DAC.

  7. #17
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 3,275
    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie123 View Post
    I kept thinking this is too easy, I must be doing something wrong! Lol
    Much of the negative stuff written about Decca's is a myth. The truth is they can sound absolutely wonderful and are no more difficult to set up than any other cartridge. They certainly give you insights into recordings I have not heard from any other cartridge.

    The only reason I don't have mine set up permanently is they can be too much of a good thing and I don't want to wear mine out!
    VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T Tonearm / 2M Black /Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Spendor SP2

  8. #18
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Sheffield - UK

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    I'm Mark.

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    I’ve never heard the term ‘cantilever haze’ and the Decca carts do have a cantilever - just a very upright one.

    100% Analogue

  9. #19
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 2,412
    I'm Tom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Much of the negative stuff written about Decca's is a myth. The truth is they can sound absolutely wonderful and are no more difficult to set up than any other cartridge. They certainly give you insights into recordings I have not heard from any other cartridge.

    The only reason I don't have mine set up permanently is they can be too much of a good thing and I don't want to wear mine out!
    Not everyone has such a positive story to tell. I've tried a couple of times now and given up both times trying to get a sound I could live with. That's not a myth that's fact. And I think I do know a thing or two about cartridge setup.
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Pre EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 / Ortofon 309 Limited tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Ortofon SPU Royal N + Shure M3D Jico stylus; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0 retipped by Ana Mighty Sound bamboo cantilever, Spirit '78' 3.0 conical from Ana, also vintage GE VRII, Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78, switchable in from tape loop; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily modded AN Kit DAC + Mutec MC3+USB.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Duncan 'Tuberhunter' 200w class D; preamp - Pass DCB1; Vinyl: Garrard 401 with AT1503 tonearm and vintage SPU-GE; SUTs - Ortofon 2-15k & Bob's Devices; Phono Stage: Schiit Mani; Digital - Trichord Genesis III CDP + Arcam rBlink; Schiit Multibit DAC.

  10. #20
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 16,548
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magiccarpetride View Post
    I was under the impression that the main factor contributing to the 'cantilever haze' was not the rigidity of the cantilever itself, but the unavoidable damping that occurs when the rubber meets the cantilever at the 'entrance' to the body of the cartridge. That touchpoint was something that Decca managed to avoid with their design, thus enabling the kinetic signal generated by the stylus to be transferred to the coils/magnets without interference by intermediary components.

    Obviously, anyone who's had a chance to listen to this cartridge set properly on a quality system can attest to the extraordinary clarity it can deliver.
    Yes the 'hinge', fulcrum or pivot point is much better defined, but the reduction of "cantilever haze" is due to the movement of the stylus being sensed as close to the stylus as possible, hence the use of a very short cantilever. This method was called "direct scanning" by Decca. The albeit short cantilever of the design is actually damped close to the pivot point.
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

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