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Thread: The vinyl illusion ?

  1. #201
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I agree, some folk just want a 'nice' sounding system however in terms of putting together a system that is accurate or plays a recording faithfully as it was intended to be heard then although that may be a goal it is one that is very difficult to achieve.
    Yup, but it can be achieved by taking a slightly different approach... I don't necessarily strive to accurately 'recreate the original sound', because as you correctly say, none of us knows what that was, including me.

    What I do instead, is strive for my system to (as far as possible) accurately reproduce the sound of real instruments and voices, as dictated by my own ears and judgement, and crucially from my experience of listening to live (un-amplified) examples of such, whilst attending various music performances over the years.

    That experience allows me to judge how things are supposed to sound, and therefore acts as the benchmark I use to 'tune' the musical presentation of my system, via judicious component, cable and speaker selection.

    For me, therefore, it doesn't really matter whether I've succeeded in accurately recreating the original sound, as long as to my ears, my system has succeeded in faithfully recreating the sound of a piano, or the sound of a drum or guitar, so that it sounds convincingly like such, and not merely a poor facsimile. *That* is what hi-fi is about, and in that respect, the fact is some things aren't meant to sound 'nice'...

    I can also say with some conviction, it's a process that works very well indeed, if you get it right!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  2. #202
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

    Posts: 1,861
    I'm Dennis.

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    If we choose a system which sounds 'nice' at the expense of accuracy, we necessarily are veering away from the recording and hence the original artistic intention.

    Mixers and masterers need to be able to hear what is actually on the recording, not a coloured, albeit perhaps a pleasant sounding facsimile, which would of course be applied equally to all replaying.

    Artistic variations and different recordings will be maximally different when the reproduction system changes the sound minimally, because it is superimposing as near to nothing as possible, onto the original recording.

    There is nothing wrong with the alterations discussed with pictures, because that is part of an artistic intention, but that should not be applied to forensic pictures used for investigation.

  3. #203
    Join Date: May 2010

    Location: Vancouver, Canada

    Posts: 2,166
    I'm Alex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    No, because if that's what you like and have strived to achieve, then your system is fulfilling its primary purpose.

    However, in terms of the bit in bold, also consider that because you don't know exactly what *should* be on the recording itself, the speakers supposedly being in the 'correct' position (as determined by your audiophile sensibilities), actually might not be allowing that to happen [due to the unique behaviour of the room], and so you "cheating" with the positioning has inadvertently allowed your speakers to reproduce the drum kit more faithfully...

    The fact is, you simply don't know how the drum kit in question originally sounded, so how can you know how much "whomp" it should have?

    Marco.
    That's a good observation. Truly, I have no idea how Teo Macero wanted Tony's drums to sound.

    I do, however, know how a drum kit sounds -- I have one in my studio! And I know that I'm cheating with my speaker placement because I'm making Tony's drums sound 'larger than life'! (which may indeed be how Teo wanted them to sound in the first place!)
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  4. #204
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Well there you go then, so worry not!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #205
    Join Date: May 2010

    Location: Vancouver, Canada

    Posts: 2,166
    I'm Alex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I agree, some folk just want a 'nice' sounding system however in terms of putting together a system that is accurate or plays a recording faithfully as it was intended to be heard then although that may be a goal it is one that is very difficult to achieve. We ultimately don't know what the artist heard when they recorded the music and nor do we know what the sound engineers heard when they recorded and mixed the music. Our system can really only at best play a version of the recording we feel is accurate?

    My system easily distinguishes between we'll recorded and engineered recordings and poor ones. It does not make bad recordings sound nice, they still sound awful. However well mastered material sounds fabulous, not simply nice. I feel then I have a system that at least has some accuracy in presentation and resolution in that it can determine the good from the bad?

    Most importantly it plays music in a way I feel sounds right and gives me pleasure.
    That dilemma would be similar to the dilemma regarding under what light to put a painting? We really don't know what was the light under which the artist was originally making their painting, so we can only guess or approximate what would be the most optimal lighting for displaying that canvas. And as we all know, any canvas tends to change its overall presentation depending on the light under which it is displayed. That is no trivial matter, and many quality museums and art galleries invest a lot of time and money into making sure that each mounted exhibition is presented under the appropriate lighting.

    Same considerations apply to listening to music on our home stereos.
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  6. #206
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    I've said this before. I value transparency. Each component in my system is (usually) chosen for this above specs and colourations, etc. If something is transparent, then surely the perceived greater level of information presented equates to a more accurate system?

    I have a fair selection of equipment to use, but each item has generally been chosen for the transparency it offers. Fortunately, I have assembled a Hi-Fi that also sounds remarkably good and pleasant in the process.

    Basically, I dislike unduly warm or comfortable or safe sounding gear. 'Natural' and revealing are the way to go in my view. And by revealing, I don't mean an upward tilt in response towards the top. That is just nasty.

    Revealing in my opinion, means offering more of what is in the recording and that is what transparency does.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  7. #207
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

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    I too have always valued transparency as a measure for evaluating equipment, indeed it was this aspect that first drew me towards Hifi, that see through window to the performance and music. I read the other day a nice analogy regarding vinyl and digital that captured my thoughts exactly but funnily enough reflects on transparency. The reviewer always thought that many digital components were like a sheet of glass between the listener and the music unlike the analogue experience which put you just there.

    The other day I was in Worcester town centre and there were a group of Asian musicians playing some street music on drums and clarinets and a few other Indian instruments. The sound was visceral, loud and almost painful. Now this was outside so there were no room reflections and yet the sound was so immediate and dynamic and powerful. I thought as I heard it I would like a recording of this and wondered how it would come across on my system and as I really listened to the sound I realised no system I have ever heard could play music or sound like the live experience.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  8. #208
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

    Posts: 1,498
    I'm paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Yup, but it can be achieved by taking a slightly different approach... I don't necessarily strive to accurately 'recreate the original sound', because as you correctly say, none of us knows what that was, including me.

    What I do instead, is strive for my system to (as far as possible) accurately reproduce the sound of real instruments and voices, as dictated by my own ears and judgement, and crucially from my experience of listening to live (un-amplified) examples of such, whilst attending various music performances over the years.

    That experience allows me to judge how things are supposed to sound, and therefore acts as the benchmark I use to 'tune' the musical presentation of my system, via judicious component, cable and speaker selection.

    For me, therefore, it doesn't really matter whether I've succeeded in accurately recreating the original sound, as long as to my ears, my system has succeeded in faithfully recreating the sound of a piano, or the sound of a drum or guitar, so that it sounds convincingly like such, and not merely a poor facsimile. *That* is what hi-fi is about, and in that respect, the fact is some things aren't meant to sound 'nice'...

    I can also say with some conviction, it's a process that works very well indeed, if you get it right!

    Marco.
    what he said +1
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  9. #209
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

    Posts: 1,498
    I'm paul.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by magiccarpetride View Post
    That's a good observation. Truly, I have no idea how Teo Macero wanted Tony's drums to sound.

    I do, however, know how a drum kit sounds -- I have one in my studio! And I know that I'm cheating with my speaker placement because I'm making Tony's drums sound 'larger than life'! (which may indeed be how Teo wanted them to sound in the first place!)
    Not all drum kits sound the same, my preference would be Ludwig. Even two drum kits of the same make won't sound the same when the drummer tunes his skins to his own liking.
    All you know is how you like a drum kit to sound.
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  10. #210
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    You're absolutely right, Jim. I've been in the same position myself many times. However, as far as what we're currently discussing, the key bit is here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    The sound was visceral, loud and almost painful. Now this was outside so there were no room reflections and yet the sound was so immediate and dynamic and powerful.
    So in terms of 'voicing' your system, as we all do inadvertently or otherwise, through component/cable and speaker selection, would you (or anyone here) seek to 'niceify' the above, by using a graphic EQ or some form of tone control, or say, use a 'warmer' pair of speakers, simply to make that sound 'nicer' to listen to?

    In effect, would you actively seek to tame that 'almost painfulness' you mention?

    For me, if the answer is 'yes' [and I suspect it isn't for you], then you're NOT a genuine hi-fi enthusiast. Sorry, but that's the truth. All you're doing is buying a bunch of boxes, to create a false sound that's pleasing to your ears - and that's fine, as it's your money, but it's not hi-fi

    Yes of course, no hi-fi system on the planet is capable of fully replicating that 'live sound', as you describe, but you *can* create a convincing snapshot of it, if you actively seek NOT to make things sound 'nice', when they're not supposed to!

    Big horn speakers have their faults, as do all speakers (and some horns can be horrendously coloured), but one of the things the best ones positively excel at, is the visceral and powerful dynamics you mention.

    In comparison with other speakers, especially the most conventional ones, they have an almost unfettered dynamic headroom, which allows them to reproduce the 'shock factor', immediacy, and almost 'painful' sound of real instruments, such as clarinets and trumpets, violins, etc. Making all other speakers, to my ears, sound rounded-off and soft - and in that respect, quite frankly, broken.

    That's one of the reasons why I use big Tannoys, as their horn-loaded tweeters succeed in producing some of what those big horn speakers do so well, in terms of dynamic alacrity, along with creating that 'visceral power' and physicality, which transforms mere recordings (providing they possess the required resolution) into faithful snapshots of 'live' musical events.

    So yes, you'll never fully recreate the immediacy, intensity and sheer dynamic clout of that 'live sound', but if you try hard and use the right gear, you can get close!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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