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Thread: The vinyl illusion ?

  1. #261
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

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    Emotive is rather difficult to quantify and is only one part of a systems ability to convey a musical genre even if it is electronic. I have a friend who listens to a lot of electronic music and indeed it is his first choice in music. His system does emotive but it is vast, extremely powerful and uses speakers with cones made from billet aluminium manufactured by YG.

    I have heard electronic sounds from this system that are so emotive they make you want to punch the air and shout ! All the material is played from digital files. He has a very large repatoire of electronica which sounds absolutely stunning. I would suggest his electronic music sounds better than any other type via his system, it seems to be absolutely suited to this type of music.

    One small problem, to achieve this it costs mucho mulla, £150,000!
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  2. #262
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

    Posts: 1,498
    I'm paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Yes, but some undoubtedly make music sound more 'real' than others!

    If you don't at least have that goal in mind, in the first place, then why own proper hi-fi [the key words here] system? At this point, I would remind folks of the definition of 'High-Fidelity':

    "The reproduction of sound with little distortion, giving a result very similar to the original".

    I think some of you have somewhat 'lost focus' on why we do (or should be doing) what we do!

    Marco.
    oh shit the hifi police are going to knock my door in the night. If I don't post again you will know why.
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  3. #263
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Paul,

    I'm sure that the principles and approach I'm advocating are not entirely alien to yours, so worry not!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  4. #264
    montesquieu Guest

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    This thread has me a bit bemused. I actually don't care that much about hifi. I've selected kit over many years with the goal of really enjoying the music I put on. Yes that does involve an element striving for accuracy (as in - it's hard to enjoy a viola da gamba that sounds like a badly-recorded cello). But it's not the be all and end all - enjoying the music is.

    Peter Walker of Quad put tone controls on his preamps because he was well aware that all too often recording engineers / mastering engineers fail to produce something that sounds decent, enjoyable, listenable. Accuracy fails in my book if any recording can't be listened to with pleasure. Ten years ago I spent time chasing detail - only to find I was barking up the wrong tree altogether. I blew up my system, ever bit of it (Quad ESL, Whest phono stages, Lyra cartridges) and started again.

    It's amazing the detail that suddenly appears on a recording if you sit down with the score of the work you are listening to - indeed, usually you find it's all on the record already, what's missing is your attention drawn to a particular element. But as a musician, and sometime conductor, I know (and should have known 10years ago) that not every detail cries out to come to the top screaming attention to itself - often the goal is to blend into the whole and create an overall effect. A system that draws your attention overly into how it reproduces tiny details or obsesses on pin perfect instrument placement, and not into the soul of the music - the harmony, counterpoint, rhythm, musical communication between the performers, micro-expression and articulation of phrasing, and most of all, the overall vibe - is a waste of time.

    You know at the opticians where they make the image super sharp, it's almost painful, then they add a lens that doesn't make it blurry as such, but takes the edge off and makes it comfortable - that's what I aim at. Breed out hash, blurring, noise, strange tonal artefacts - yes of course, you need to get to a point where those aren't there, where the sound is clear and there's no rubbish getting in the way. But go too far, use too magnifying a lens, and you can take away soul of of the music.

    If I put on a record and it makes my ears bleed, I don't just blame the recording engineer: he has failed, yes but also in some way so has my system. I have quite a few orchestral records that sound like they were recorded in a giant toilet, or have instruments far too closely miked, or some other glaring flaw. Often the performance is dross as well so there's no need ever to play it again. Occasionally though, that crap recording contains some excellent or rare performance - and my system ought to be able to make a decent fist of doing something with it. I can marvel at what my system drags out of 78s - not a hifi medium by any stretch - but enjoyable - yes indeed.

    Accuracy - yes, up to a point, Lord Copper.

  5. #265
    Join Date: Dec 2015

    Location: Alicante. Spain.

    Posts: 1,885
    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    This thread has me a bit bemused. I actually don't care that much about hifi. I've selected kit over many years with the goal of really enjoying the music I put on. Yes that does involve an element striving for accuracy (as in - it's hard to enjoy a viola da gamba that sounds like a badly-recorded cello). But it's not the be all and end all - enjoying the music is.

    Peter Walker of Quad put tone controls on his preamps because he was well aware that all too often recording engineers / mastering engineers fail to produce something that sounds decent, enjoyable, listenable. Accuracy fails in my book if any recording can't be listened to with pleasure. Ten years ago I spent time chasing detail - only to find I was barking up the wrong tree altogether. I blew up my system, ever bit of it (Quad ESL, Whest phono stages, Lyra cartridges) and started again.

    It's amazing the detail that suddenly appears on a recording if you sit down with the score of the work you are listening to - indeed, usually you find it's all on the record already, what's missing is your attention drawn to a particular element. But as a musician, and sometime conductor, I know (and should have known 10years ago) that not every detail cries out to come to the top screaming attention to itself - often the goal is to blend into the whole and create an overall effect. A system that draws your attention overly into how it reproduces tiny details or obsesses on pin perfect instrument placement, and not into the soul of the music - the harmony, counterpoint, rhythm, musical communication between the performers, micro-expression and articulation of phrasing, and most of all, the overall vibe - is a waste of time.

    You know at the opticians where they make the image super sharp, it's almost painful, then they add a lens that doesn't make it blurry as such, but takes the edge off and makes it comfortable - that's what I aim at. Breed out hash, blurring, noise, strange tonal artefacts - yes of course, you need to get to a point where those aren't there, where the sound is clear and there's no rubbish getting in the way. But go too far, use too magnifying a lens, and you can take away soul of of the music.

    If I put on a record and it makes my ears bleed, I don't just blame the recording engineer: he has failed, yes but also in some way so has my system. I have quite a few orchestral records that sound like they were recorded in a giant toilet, or have instruments far too closely miked, or some other glaring flaw. Often the performance is dross as well so there's no need ever to play it again. Occasionally though, that crap recording contains some excellent or rare performance - and my system ought to be able to make a decent fist of doing something with it. I can marvel at what my system drags out of 78s - not a hifi medium by any stretch - but enjoyable - yes indeed.

    Accuracy - yes, up to a point, Lord Copper.
    +1
    Technics SP10 mk2
    Jan Allaerts MC 1 Boron mk1 cart
    Miyajima Shilabe cart
    Hashimoto HM-X SUT
    Siggwan (gimballed not unipivot) Cocobola 12"
    Aurorasound Vida LCR Phonostage
    The Truth linestage
    Dave Slagle Autoformer Volume Controller
    Cary 805c SET amps
    Audio Note ANe-SPX speakers
    Townshend Isolda speaker cables
    Cardas Golden Presence interconnects

  6. #266
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Tom,

    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    This thread has me a bit bemused. I actually don't care that much about hifi. I've selected kit over many years with the goal of really enjoying the music I put on. Yes that does involve an element striving for accuracy (as in - it's hard to enjoy a viola da gamba that sounds like a badly-recorded cello). But it's not the be all and end all - enjoying the music is.
    I completely agree, but for me, the more my ears tell me that my system reproduces the sound of real instruments more faithfully (or accurately), the more I enjoy the music, so the two simply go hand in hand

    But it's not about creating a 'soulless sound' that majors on detail retrieval, at the expense of musicality. You *can* have BOTH!

    Look at the type of cartridges I like, for example (plus when I had SPUs), and also the speakers I use, all of which you're very familiar with yourself - and all of them are inherently musical sounding devices, excelling at tone and timbre, and SOUL. I wouldn't use a Whest or Lyra product if you paid me!!

    So I'm afraid this notion (and the common mindset that prevails amongst some enthusiasts) that if your system is 'accurate' and/or very revealing/detailed, it's somehow 'all hi-fi and no music', is patent nonsense and a complete fallacy. The fact is, what could ever be more musical sounding or enjoyable than the music itself [the original sound]??

    That's hi-fi, but it's also music! So getting as close as possible to the sound of the real thing/original *has* to be the goal for any true hi-fi enthusiast and music lover [count me in].

    Peter Walker of Quad put tone controls on his preamps because he was well aware that all too often recording engineers / mastering engineers fail to produce something that sounds decent, enjoyable, listenable.
    Well that may sometimes be the case (and the 'tone controls' on Quad gear are well-executed and subtle in the effect they produce), but all I can say is that as someone who owns a very large and diverse music collection, of all different genres and on various formats, I've NEVER ONCE felt the need to use tone controls, and so almost every amplifier I've owned hasn't featured any.

    For me, there are much better ways of addressing those issues than employing the 'bandage' (something I touched on earlier) of a tone control.

    Accuracy fails in my book if any recording can't be listened to with pleasure.
    As I've already said, the two (accuracy and pleasure) aren't mutually exclusive!

    A system that draws your attention overly into how it reproduces tiny details or obsesses on pin perfect instrument placement, and not into the soul of the music - the harmony, counterpoint, rhythm, musical communication between the performers, micro-expression and articulation of phrasing, and most of all, the overall vibe - is a waste of time.
    Agreed, but what about a system that has all (or a goodly dose) of the latter, as well as the same of the former?

    As I've said, it CAN be done. It just takes the right mix of equipment and a good pair of ears. It's not rocket science. There is simply no reason to think that you can only have one, but not the other. What you're essentially after, is creating a sound that's as LIFELIKE as possible.

    'Accuracy' (I prefer using the word 'faithfulness') doesn't have to mean ear-bleeding, "super sharp", bright or anything else, which makes the listening experience uncomfortable. The listening experience can be perfectly comfortable, whilst at the same time, presenting a sound that's highly resolving of the recording that's being reproduced.

    "The soul of the music" (something I'm very BIG on, in terms of how my system has been 'voiced') still remains intact and unhindered in the presence of that 'accuracy' or faithfulness, simply because *nothing* can ever be more musical, enjoyable or SOULFUL, than the music itself.

    Think about it this way, in terms of 'accuracy', which is beginning to sound like a dirty word around here...

    If your system [let's pretend] was able to 100% faithfully reproduce the sound of a cello, with zero coloration/distortion and unhindered clarity, so that you simply couldn't distinguish between what was coming out of your speakers, and the sound produced by the real thing, then how would that ever be ear-bleeding or uncomfortable?

    It could only ever be so if you didn't actually LIKE the sound of the real thing! So...... There is absolutely no reason to 'fear' accuracy or faithfulness to the original sound (what hi-fi is about), *if* what's being judged is genuinely that.

    The problem is, that often what is claimed as such, actually isn't [it's simply a bright, forward, super-detailed sound, posing as 'accurate', but ultimately just as coloured as a warm, dull, laid back one], and so that's what gives 'accuracy' a bad name - but that's 'false accuracy', rather than the real thing!

    And *that* is what the problem was before you had your "lightbulb" moment.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #267
    Join Date: Jul 2014

    Location: Shropshire

    Posts: 2,420
    I'm Anto.

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    I probably have a low end system , that means I dont really see the difference myself , in the 2 formats !!
    I dont have the time to faff around with it , and probably have made my mind up that I dont want to throw silly money at it either !

    I have a Project Debut Carbon with the Red cart , but lately prefer to use my old Ferguson belt drive TT with Shure M75-6S cart , as it satisfies my need for interchanging several heads !
    Plus the fact ,I am a peasant
    I only ride 'em, I don't know what makes 'em work

  8. #268
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: gone

    Posts: 11,519
    I'm gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    .... Ten years ago I spent time chasing detail - only to find I was barking up the wrong tree altogether. I blew up my system, ever bit of it (Quad ESL, Whest phono stages, Lyra cartridges) and started again....
    .
    Wow.
    Fascinating.
    Without a shadow of a doubt that modded-Quad ESL system was by far the best I have heard at your place -- and pretty much any other place as well; it did many things astonishingly well, including for me bringing the music realistically alive in a way that the Tannoys at a later visit just totally didn't do (for me).

    Different paths indeed.
    .

  9. #269
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by jandl100 View Post
    Wow.
    Fascinating.
    Without a shadow of a doubt that modded-Quad ESL system was by far the best I have heard at your place -- and pretty much any other place as well; it did many things astonishingly well, including for me bringing the music realistically alive in a way that the Tannoys at a later visit just totally didn't do (for me).

    Different paths indeed.
    It did some things beautifully Jerry I'm not denying that. But I had a lightbulb moment when an old school friend came to visit.

    We hadn't seen each other for almost 30 years but had been really close friends, played a lot of music together (he was a trumpet player - I recall accompanying him at the piano on Hummel and Haydn trumpet concertos) and aged 14 and 15 we used to get the train through from Motherwell to the Scottish proms at the kelvin hall in Glasgow. Thanks to the wonders of the internet we reconnected around that time.

    He came over all the way from Southend and was duly impressed by the lieder and the lute music I put on. I asked him if he wanted to hear anything and he pulled out an old Bruno Walter recording of a Mahler symphony. It totally underwhelmed and I was embarrassed.

    After he went home I realised my listening had shrunk. I was only playing music the system liked and avoiding stuff it couldn't handle. It provided a beautiful window onto small scale music, but it didn't energise the room - and with bigger music you can't get away with that.

    A pair of Lancasters came up, and having had Tannoys previously I grabbed them. These were a revelation, for all their flaws (the Lancaster cabinet doesn't show the 15in MG at its best, not by a long shot). My wife then told me how much she hated the Quads - she loves to sit off centre sometimes with a huge pile of essays or exam scripts to match, and with Tannoys, you don't need to be in the sweet spot for music to sound good.

    Anyway that set me on a path to see what could be done with Tannoys.

    You do need to come over Jerry and hear the current incarnation - after my big Radford comes back we'll get another classical music day arranged.

  10. #270
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Anything to say about my previous post, Tom?

    For me, the reason why you junked the system you've just referred to is because it created a false impression of 'accuracy'; one which I outlined in my previous post. However, there's simply no reason why you can have BOTH (genuine) accuracy, and the 'musicality' you've described and enjoy

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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