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Thread: The vinyl illusion ?

  1. #51
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I agree but that is not the sort of distortion I'm talking about. If it was then nothing would sound good on vinyl except girl with guitar. The inherent distortions of vinyl replay actually subjectively enhance the sound pretty much regardless of how complex the recording is. Your talking about the distortion that some manufacturers use to get what I call 'fake hi-fi'. That is, it sounds good, breathtaking even, with very clean, sparse recordings and harsh and hard with anything else. Then the recordings get blamed. 'Cloth eared engineers' and so on. Ludicrous but it is endemic now.

    Was reading on another forum just yesterday where a bloke had just installed some new £8K interconnects and although some recordings were now 'mind blowing' his original pressing of 'Electric Ladyland' had been rendered 'unlistenable'. Something gone badly wrong there on more than one level.
    He must have an excellent imagination! I bet his hi fi dealer was just about to shut.... but he had a glance out of the window and saw him coming
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  2. #52
    Join Date: Dec 2008

    Location: East Riding of Yorkshire these days

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    He must have an excellent imagination! I bet his hi fi dealer was just about to shut.... but he had a glance out of the window and saw him coming

  3. #53
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Not imagination, just a load of weird stuff in the interconnects. Get the distortion up, enhance those leading edges, everything you play now sounds 'live'.

    This benefits some recordings, kills others. Shit that was what the whole 'flat earth' thing was all about, now they are doing it with cables. All that R&D they do isn't to improve the transparency of their cables. it is to give them their own sound. You won't sell cables at that price if they are just transparent, as no-one would hear the difference between them and some 20 quid efforts.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  4. #54
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

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    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Not imagination, just a load of weird stuff in the interconnects. Get the distortion up, enhance those leading edges, everything you play now sounds 'live'.

    This benefits some recordings, kills others. Shit that was what the whole 'flat earth' thing was all about, now they are doing it with cables. All that R&D they do isn't to improve the transparency of their cables. it is to give them their own sound. You won't sell cables at that price if they are just transparent, as no-one would hear the difference between them and some 20 quid efforts.
    But there is no difference...

    Edit: anyone else getting this thing where you post something and it asks you if you want to leave the page, so you say yes, it then takes about 20 seconds for your post to appear... twice!
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  5. #55
    Join Date: Sep 2014

    Location: brighton uk.

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    I'm jamie.

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    oh yes there is!
    My System
    John Wood KT88 Amp.
    Paradise Phono Stage
    Sony TTS-8000 Turntable.
    PMAT-1010 MK6 Tonearm.
    Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
    Sony X555ES Cd Player
    Yamaha NS1000m Speakers

  6. #56
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

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    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie123 View Post
    oh yes there is!
    You should start a thread about this...
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  7. #57
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

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    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Was reading on another forum just yesterday where a bloke had just installed some new £8K interconnects and although some recordings were now 'mind blowing' his original pressing of 'Electric Ladyland' had been rendered 'unlistenable'. Something gone badly wrong there on more than one level.
    £8k for interconnects is peanuts.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  8. #58
    Join Date: May 2010

    Location: Vancouver, Canada

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    I'm Alex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haselsh1 View Post
    Back in the mid sixties we always had a Dansette Tempo in the house and loads of 7" vinyl singles to listen to so I guess a love of vinyl was inevitable. Around 1973 my Mom bought me an ITT stereo with a BSR autochanger and I had a few albums mainly by Roxy Music. In 1977 I had a huge motorcycle smash, spent five months in hospital and two year away from work. Just after that period I bought my first 'real' hi-fi system which was a Garrard GT35 turntable, Trio 40 Wpc amplifier and Goodmans RB20 loudspeakers. After a year, the amplifier was changed to a Naim 42/110 combination and then, a short while later I bought a Logic DM101. In 1983 my dreams came true and I bought my first ever CD player, a Yamaha CDX1. Around 1988 I bought a Cambridge Audio CD2. At this point I basically scrapped my vinyl LP collection only keeping around 100 of my more precious discs.

    Moving on to 1997 I got the feeling that vinyl was probably not that bad after all and bought an Alphason Sonata with an Alphason HR100S MCS tonearm and an Ortofon Kontrapunkt a cartridge with an appropriate phono stage. Obviously I started to buy lots of vinyl to replace what I once had.

    During 2005 - 2012 my financial position crashed and I was living in a very bad situation so everything was sold to keep the baying wolves from the door. Now though, thanks to my current partner Sue and her love of music and vinyl, I am back where I want to be; almost ! I still have a problem with vinyl. I am almost convinced now that I am suffering from the 'vinyl illusion'. It appears to me that the whole vinyl scene is one of mental expectation and the thought of vinyl playing actually being a lot better than the reality. The memory of playing vinyl records is an illusion created by our minds and the reality falls way short of this illusion. It is a glorious thing to play a vinyl record on a really nice turntable/arm/cart, flipping the sides over each time and just engulfing ones self in this beauty. The truth though is that it is nothing more that a pain in the arse full of old junk technology ?

    Someone please let me know where I am going wrong.
    Back in February this year my wife asked me what do I want for my birthday. A nice Fender Telecaster immediately came to mind, but then I thought "I already have several beautiful guitars, why pollute the household with yet another exorbitantly expensive guitar that probably won't get much playtime anyway?"

    So my second thought was "turntable?" But I immediately said "nah!"; turntables are such hassle, plus they are antiquated tech, and sound inferior to good digital hi fi.

    But the little worm kept burrowing in my head, so I started slowly eyeing some turntables. Entry level Rega was selling for cheap at my local furniture store, so my first thought was "let's get Rega." But then I started reading some 'opinions' online, and started hearing a lot of praise for a moving coil cartridge Denon DL-103. So I decided to build my analogue front-end starting with DL-103, and work my way backwards. So I ordered the cartridge.

    The first thing I learned once I started reading about DL-103 was that entry level turntables, the likes of Rega and Project (their entry level models), just won't cut it for DL-103. I then moved on to considering Technics SL1200; however, those beasts were rare, and if they came on the market for sale, were in a battered shape and the asking price was around $1,000.

    One day, at the local record store, I saw the paper ad for Thorens 165. Called the guy and explained that I have DL-103; turned out he was running a turntable shop, and knew a boatload about all things analogue. He told me that this Thorens model is not precise enough for DL-103. He also told me to forget about Technics, as these are not nearly as good for such precise cartridge.

    So I asked him to suggest me an appropriate turntable, and he said he had a pretty good match in mind. I went to his store, and he showed me the modded Systemdek IIX, with acrylic platter, fitted with modded Rega RB300 tonearm (rewired, plus some other mods). He fitted my DL-103, and supplied me with his hand made SUT into MM phono stage.

    I took the turntable home, and installed it. To tell the truth, I was expecting it to sound way inferior to my digital front end. But lo and behold, it just blew the digital out of the water! Compared to digital, my analogue front end breathes fire!

    The next thing I did on my 'born again analogue' journey is get me a nice RCM. After washing my records, vacuuming them, rinsing with distilled water and vacuuming again, the whole new world of shiny music opened for me. Now when I switch back to digital, I'm missing the ferocity, the 'molten lava' sound that my vinyl playback is giving me.

    But for me, the most critical part of enjoying the vinyl playback is careful, thorough washing and vacuuming the LPs. Without that step, vinyl can sound pale and lifeless compared to good digital.
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  9. #59
    Join Date: May 2010

    Location: Vancouver, Canada

    Posts: 2,166
    I'm Alex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    One of the advantages of digital. Very little faff
    Depends. I know my way around Linux, so I can spend days faffing about the thread priorities and many other configuration details of my digital transport. Many of those changes modify the way my digital front end sounds, so there is much more faffing in the digital realm. Think of it as similar to how you can spend days messing with Photoshop effects and applying them to your photos. It's basically going down the rabbit hole.

    Much less opportunity for such hard core faffing in the land of turntables.
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  10. #60
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

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    I'm paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haselsh1 View Post
    Yes, once again I agree with Martin.

    If a CD based system like mine is preferable to a vinyl based system also like mine then the CD based system is better but only to my ears. Listening to Floyd's DSOTM earlier today it was obvious that the CD system sounded highly superior to the vinyl system on the same music. Playing vinyl I listened to the album and then thought I would just play the best bits on CD. The sad fact is though that the CD system was so relaxed and laid back I just played the whole bloody thing all over again.
    I can't even say that any aspect of the vinyl is markedly better than the CD. It simply isn't. I shall spend some time this week resetting the arm/cart... again...! I shall then listen to some Brand X on original analogue vinyl and see how things turn out for me.

    I want this to work out, I really do. Honestly
    Some remastered vinyl is crap, I have an original abbey road, a bit noisy so I bought a new one and the original beats the new one hands down, not in the same league. Btw I'm not a Beatles fan, only like abbey road.
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

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