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Thread: The vinyl illusion ?

  1. #181
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    I'd pack this in immediately if I ever had thoughts of making stuff sound "nice". The "niceness" should come from the accurate reproduction of the original sound,.
    Not if you have been conditioned through years of Audiopholia to believe that the 'nice sound' is made by the equipment.

    It is all cart before horse nowadays. Trust the recording. It was made by people who knew what they were doing and they made it with one purpose: To sound really good when played back in someone's home. The only thing your replay equipment can do is bollocks that up to a greater or lesser degree.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  2. #182
    Join Date: Feb 2013

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    I'm Grant.

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    A good study was done a number of years ago now, and came down on side of quality .

    http://seanolive.blogspot.co.uk/2010...eration-y.html
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ ......Don't be such a big girl's blouse

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
    .... ..... ...... ...... ................... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
    FIIO K7 BT, M11 PLUS, BTR7, KA5 - OPPO BDP-103D - PANASONIC UB450 - PANASONIC 4K ULTRA HD TV - PIXEL 6 - AVANTREE LR BLUETOOTH - 2* X600 SOUNDCORE - HEADPHONES INCLUDE, FIIO, NURAPHONES', FOCAL, OPPO, BOSE, CAMBRIDGE, BOWER & WILKINS, DEVIALET, MARSHALL, SONY, MITCHELL & JOHNSTON - 2*ZBOOK'S- MERCURY BD ROM, ROON, QOBUZ, TIDAL, PLEX, CYBERLINK, JRIVER - MULTI HDD'S -

    Oh my god! There's nothing wrong with the bidet is there?

    “Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test. It is the glory of Lincoln that, having almost absolute power, he never abused it, except on the side of mercy".

    “You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police ... yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts: words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home -- all the more powerful because forbidden -- terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic.”

    "You don't have free will. You have the appearance of free will.”

    “There's a war out there, old friend. A world war. And it's not about who's got the most bullets. It's about who controls the information. What we see and hear, how we work, what we think... it's all about the information!”


    ***SMILE, BE HAPPY***

  3. #183
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    A good study was done a number of years ago now, and came down on side of quality .

    http://seanolive.blogspot.co.uk/2010...eration-y.html
    That wasn't a test of the quality of the recording though. Just a test of the preference for lossy or lossless format.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  4. #184
    Join Date: Dec 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    But I agree entirely, making something that sounds good is more important than making something that is accurate - at least to me.
    Totally agree with you. If it doesn't give me an immediately emotional response then as far as I am concerned it is not worth the money.

  5. #185
    Join Date: Feb 2013

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    I'm Grant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    That wasn't a test of the quality of the recording though. Just a test of the preference for lossy or lossless format.
    and of accurate speakers v inaccurate ones. accurate won
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ ......Don't be such a big girl's blouse

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
    .... ..... ...... ...... ................... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
    FIIO K7 BT, M11 PLUS, BTR7, KA5 - OPPO BDP-103D - PANASONIC UB450 - PANASONIC 4K ULTRA HD TV - PIXEL 6 - AVANTREE LR BLUETOOTH - 2* X600 SOUNDCORE - HEADPHONES INCLUDE, FIIO, NURAPHONES', FOCAL, OPPO, BOSE, CAMBRIDGE, BOWER & WILKINS, DEVIALET, MARSHALL, SONY, MITCHELL & JOHNSTON - 2*ZBOOK'S- MERCURY BD ROM, ROON, QOBUZ, TIDAL, PLEX, CYBERLINK, JRIVER - MULTI HDD'S -

    Oh my god! There's nothing wrong with the bidet is there?

    “Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test. It is the glory of Lincoln that, having almost absolute power, he never abused it, except on the side of mercy".

    “You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police ... yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts: words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home -- all the more powerful because forbidden -- terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic.”

    "You don't have free will. You have the appearance of free will.”

    “There's a war out there, old friend. A world war. And it's not about who's got the most bullets. It's about who controls the information. What we see and hear, how we work, what we think... it's all about the information!”


    ***SMILE, BE HAPPY***

  6. #186
    RothwellAudio Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    I'm quite the opposite on that one! It must be accurate above all else. I'd pack this in immediately if I ever had thoughts of making stuff sound "nice". The "niceness" should come from the accurate reproduction of the original sound, allowing an open window into the performance. One should therefore be enjoying the performance itself and not the "version of the performance" delivered by a coloured system.
    I think you may have misunderstood me - I wasn't advocating nice rather than accurate playback equipment, I was advocating making nice recordings rather than accurate recordings (whatever they may be). Imagine Us And Them from DSOTM without the repeats on "Us...us...us...us...". It's a totally artificial tape effect, but it sounds great (to me). Can you imagine what reaction some "purist" in the recording studio would get if (s)he insisted that the band look for a long tunnel to give precisely the right length of echo to match the song's tempo and record that instead of using tape echo?
    Of course, those are artistic judgements. When the recording is finished and it's time to play it back in the home, then I want accuracy.

  7. #187
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    I think you may have misunderstood me - I wasn't advocating nice rather than accurate playback equipment, I was advocating making nice recordings rather than accurate recordings (whatever they may be). .
    I think for some an accurate recording is the event played live and recorded with a stereo pair. That seems to be the sort of quality of recording that audiophiles want, but so many recordings are not made that way, or anything like that way. To take your example you just couldn't make DSOTM like that.

    So all this business about a quality recording letting us hear the natural sound of instruments in the natural acoustic can only ever apply to a certain sub-set of recordings. On a quality replay system they will sound very real indeed compared to a rock band album where only the drums and vocals have been recorded in an acoustic. Does that make the rock recording a poor recording? Not to me but some would say otherwise.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  8. #188
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

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    I'm Dennis.

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    I apologise for typos - shadow over keys caused by arms, and also conjunctivitis.

    From Jez;
    "I'm quite the opposite on that one! It must be accurate above all else. I'd pack this in immediately if I ever had thoughts of making stuff sound "nice". The "niceness" should come from the accurate reproduction of the original sound, allowing an open window into the performance. One should therefore be enjoying the performance itself and not the "version of the performance" delivered by a coloured system. "

    I completely agree, the replay system should replicate the recorded waveform, but as a correlate in air pressure variation in the replay room.

    Making a recording sound nice, perhaps by euphonic coloration, whatever its source, may provide the comfort of a familiar sound, but it will ultimately serve to obscure the reality of the recording, and thus inevitably the reality of the art itself to some extent.

    Comfort zones are readily seen in all of life, but ultimately they limit the ability to address realities, and so limit personal perception and development. Perceiving reality is a vital factor in any achievement or endeavour.

    I am still battling with new speakers which are daily giving me shocks with insight into music I thought I knew well, and it is discomforting, but after years of improving my system, I have found increasingly as it gets better, that I find more audible faults on well known recordings; with each improvement more appear.

    The DSOTM repetition is an artistic choice, and that is beyond the scope of a Hi-Fi reproduction quality critique.
    Last edited by Pharos; 21-09-2017 at 17:11.

  9. #189
    Join Date: May 2010

    Location: Vancouver, Canada

    Posts: 2,166
    I'm Alex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    From Jez;
    "I'm quite the opposite on that one! It must be accurate above all else. I'd pack this in immediately if I ever had thoughts of making stuff sound "nice". The "niceness" should come from the accurate reproduction of the original sound, allowing an open window into the performance. One should therefore be enjoying the performance itself and not the "version of the performance" delivered by a coloured system. "

    I completely agree, the replay system should replicate the recorded waveform, but as a correlate in air pressure variation in the replay room.

    Making a recording sound nice, perhaps by euphonic coloration, whatever its source, may provide the comfort of a familiar sound, but it will ultimately serve to obscure the reality of the recording, and thus inevitably the reality of the art itself to some extent.

    Comfort zones are readily seen in all of life, but ultimately they limit the ability to address realities, and so limit personal perception and development. Perceiving reality is a vital factor in any achievement or endeavour.

    I am still battling with new speakers which are daily giving me shocks with insight into music I thought I knew well, and it is discomforting, but after years of improving my system, I have found increasingly as it gets better, that I find more audible faults on well known recordings; with each improvement more appear.

    The DSOTM repetition is an artistic choice, and that is beyond the scope of a Hi-Fi reproduction quality critique.
    I enjoy good photography, and I never expect from it to present me with a faithful representation of what can be seen with a naked eye. The art of photography lies exactly in avoiding the accuracy that is part and parcel of our sensory perception, as evolved over hundreds of millions of years in this crazy game of survival and adaptation.

    Same goes for sound reproduction. I expect my stereo system to editorialize on the raw signal recorded during performance. If I record myself playing, the recorded playback is always a major sonic disappointment. It never sounds even close to how I hear it while I'm playing (or how I hear other people play their instruments).

    It is for that reason that we hire trained sound engineers/mastering engineers -- we want them to embellish the raw recorded sound, to make it more seductive to the listeners. A good turntable is yet another step in editorializing the performance, in making it even more seductive. This is similar to applying various filters and other effects to photos being edited in Photoshop, or in Instagram etc.
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

  10. #190
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

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    I'm Grant.

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    Quite. I want to enjoy my listening. If someone takes the rough edges off in studio it's called proper audio hiding and if it's taken off at my end it called coloured. I think some folk are determined to wear their hairshirts
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ ......Don't be such a big girl's blouse

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
    .... ..... ...... ...... ................... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
    FIIO K7 BT, M11 PLUS, BTR7, KA5 - OPPO BDP-103D - PANASONIC UB450 - PANASONIC 4K ULTRA HD TV - PIXEL 6 - AVANTREE LR BLUETOOTH - 2* X600 SOUNDCORE - HEADPHONES INCLUDE, FIIO, NURAPHONES', FOCAL, OPPO, BOSE, CAMBRIDGE, BOWER & WILKINS, DEVIALET, MARSHALL, SONY, MITCHELL & JOHNSTON - 2*ZBOOK'S- MERCURY BD ROM, ROON, QOBUZ, TIDAL, PLEX, CYBERLINK, JRIVER - MULTI HDD'S -

    Oh my god! There's nothing wrong with the bidet is there?

    “Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test. It is the glory of Lincoln that, having almost absolute power, he never abused it, except on the side of mercy".

    “You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police ... yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts: words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home -- all the more powerful because forbidden -- terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic.”

    "You don't have free will. You have the appearance of free will.”

    “There's a war out there, old friend. A world war. And it's not about who's got the most bullets. It's about who controls the information. What we see and hear, how we work, what we think... it's all about the information!”


    ***SMILE, BE HAPPY***

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