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Thread: The vinyl illusion ?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I

    In terms of the effect of the above on recording studios [the initial transition from valve to transistor equipment], I firmly believe that some of the awful sounding, dull as ditchwater recordings on vinyl, from the early 70s, were as a result of sound engineers and technicians still getting to grips with the new equipment - and in some cases failing miserably!

    Marco.
    Well, without knowing which studios were using/getting to grips with 'new' equipment, or still using old equipment, it's impossible to ascribe causes and effects. The vast majority of my LP buying was, roughly speaking, between 1968 and 1980. I wouldn't say I noticed a decline in sound quality over that period, but then I was mostly listening via cheap-as-chips record players. I can only think of a handful downright poor recordings (in terms of sound quality rather than artistic merit) that I bought during that period.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    Well, without knowing which studios were using/getting to grips with 'new' equipment, or still using old equipment, it's impossible to ascribe causes and effects.
    Indeed. However, I'm simply expressing my opinion, and what in certain instances I believe was the case (based on some research into the matter), not stating facts.

    The vast majority of my LP buying was, roughly speaking, between 1968 and 1980. I wouldn't say I noticed a decline in sound quality over that period, but then I was mostly listening via cheap-as-chips record players.
    Then, by your own admission, because of that fact, you'll have been in no real position to judge sound quality!

    A more accurate assessment would be to judge (using your current T/T and system) how one of your LPs from, say, 1968 (or before), compares in that respect with one from, say, 1972/3, and how either of those recordings compares with those you've bought on vinyl recently.

    I'm not attempting to arrive at any definitive conclusions here; simply stating that, IMO (and experience), the recording/sound quality of rock and pop music on vinyl, in some cases, took a considerable nosedive during the early to mid 70s, until studios had properly got to grips with the use of transistor technology, and when said technology itself had matured and improved accordingly.

    I believe that's one of the reasons, for example. why Andre (ex-member of this forum) always said that much of his treasured prog-rock music sounded shit!

    Marco.
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    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Indeed, I believe that they were in common use from the early 60s. Folks (as ever) were all too keen to embrace the (then) new technology, particularly EEs, when valves became more unreliable, as production quality took a nosedive in the late 60s.

    I'm reliably informed that transistors were heralded as the new 'sonic saviour', signalling an end to the 'faff' of using tubes, simplifying the design of audio circuits accordingly. I'm told, however, that some of the early SS amps sounded truly dire, until the technology matured enough and was properly understood by engineers, in order to make the most out of it.

    In terms of the effect of the above on recording studios [the initial transition from valve to transistor equipment], I firmly believe that some of the awful sounding, dull as ditchwater recordings on vinyl, from the early 70s, were as a result of sound engineers and technicians still getting to grips with the new equipment - and in some cases failing miserably!

    Marco.
    They were in common use by the early sixties but mainly in transistor radios. Transistors were very expensive at that time and things which had no need for portability tended to remain valved for a few more years.

    The limitations of very early transistors were well understood by EE's and in more demanding applications the best virtues of both were exploited in hybrids for a long time. An example is that Marconi Instruments signal generator I recently got. It was built in 1968 but still all valved other than the regulated supply for the valve heaters. now the reason for this is largely that it was still a damn good instrument and they had production lines and supply chain set up to build them.... The salient point being that they came out about 1960. No new products from them used valves by then and in fact some all transistor items of test gear were introduced by them in the early to mid sixties. TV sets were hybrid for a long time and well into the mid seventies!

    They did not simplify the design of amplifiers and there was no issue with valves becoming unreliable.

    It was generally early transistor power amps that sounded dire and this did not carry over to other things such as mixing desks so no there was no period of getting used to transistor technology as such and no period when recordings suddenly went bad due to transistors. Late sixties transistor mixing desks would have worked exactly the same in use as a valve one.

    Initially and in fact for quite a few years valve power amps would still have been used to drive the cutter head as there were no transistor ones available of sufficient power and reliability. I would guestimate most cutter head power amps would be valves until around 1972 ish.
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  4. #124
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    Apropos amplifiers used to drive cutter heads. I believe these have to be high power designs (500W or more), so it is quite likely valves were used for quite some time before transistors were able to take over that role.

    I had to environmentally test some microwave designs of mine that would be be used in jet fighters. The Bruel and Kjaer vibration tables were powered by enormous valve amplifiers, employing a dozen or so KT66 valves.
    Barry

  5. #125
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    Most tvs of time were hybrid too, but not all. signal stages were often transistors.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Apropos amplifiers used to drive cutter heads. I believe these have to be high power designs (500W or more), so it is quite likely valves were used for quite some time before transistors were able to take over that role.

    I had to environmentally test some microwave designs of mine that would be be used in jet fighters. The Bruel and Kjaer vibration tables were powered by enormous valve amplifiers, employing a dozen or so KT66 valves.
    That's a baby vibration table amplifier! There were 10KW and more examples using transmitter valves. Bruel and Kjaer is good test gear and I use quite a few bit's of their kit...
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    bit's


    Last edited by Stratmangler; 20-09-2017 at 14:37.
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  8. #128
    RothwellAudio Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I'm not attempting to arrive at any definitive conclusions here; simply stating that, IMO (and experience), the recording/sound quality of rock and pop music on vinyl, in some cases, took a considerable nosedive during the early to mid 70s, until studios had properly got to grips with the use of transistor technology, and when said technology itself had matured and improved accordingly.
    I think we need to consider not only the technology used - valve or transistor - but also the way the music industry was changing in the late sixties and early seventies, and how fast it was changing. Recording equipment was expensive and studios tended to be a large-scale investment and they were manned by "boffins". Recording sessions tended to be brief with most of the work done live in the studio in only a few takes. As the pop industry grew and the technology of the day - transistors and printed circuit boards - made recording equipment more affordable, many smaller independent studios started to spring up. As more tape tracks became available it was more and more common to overdub instruments instead of recording a whole band playing together. The whole way of doing things was evolving and musicians rather than boffins were running studios. Sometimes I'm sure they didn't really know what they were doing, and sometimes they were just learning or evolving. Ascribing any change in sound quality between say 1968 and 1972 to valve/transistor changes would be to overlook the rapid changes that were occurring in all parts of the recording/music industry. Consider the changes from 1965 to 1975 - what a difference in just one decade!

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    I think we need to consider not only the technology used - valve or transistor - but also the way the music industry was changing in the late sixties and early seventies, and how fast it was changing. Recording equipment was expensive and studios tended to be a large-scale investment and they were manned by "boffins". Recording sessions tended to be brief with most of the work done live in the studio in only a few takes. As the pop industry grew and the technology of the day - transistors and printed circuit boards - made recording equipment more affordable, many smaller independent studios started to spring up. As more tape tracks became available it was more and more common to overdub instruments instead of recording a whole band playing together. The whole way of doing things was evolving and musicians rather than boffins were running studios. Sometimes I'm sure they didn't really know what they were doing, and sometimes they were just learning or evolving. Ascribing any change in sound quality between say 1968 and 1972 to valve/transistor changes would be to overlook the rapid changes that were occurring in all parts of the recording/music industry. Consider the changes from 1965 to 1975 - what a difference in just one decade!
    Good post!
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
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  10. #130
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    No probs with the rest of your post, Jez, as I accept what you've said, however...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    It was generally early transistor power amps that sounded dire and this did not carry over to other things such as mixing desks so no there was no period of getting used to transistor technology as such and no period when recordings suddenly went bad due to transistors.
    I'm not so sure. Certainly, to my ears, some of the vinyl recordings produced during the period in question sounded dire [much worse than those from earlier years], so there must've been a reason for that, which of course is up for debate.

    In my view, it's partly to do with what Andrew has said (and yes he makes some good points), and also partly due to the 'transistor factor', or rather that the (then) 'defunct' valve mixing desks, etc, were actually still sonically superior to their new transistor counterparts - that was until transistor technology improved, and digital came in, both of which helped to level the playing field.

    It still doesn't change the fact though, that some of the finest sounding recordings I own, on vinyl, are from the days when valves were used in studios, along with tape machines, and when "boffins" [read as experienced technicians] were responsible for the sound, not musicians - and I don't consider that as a coincidence!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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