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Thread: Digital vs. LP

  1. #91
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    The PSU and analogue output stage are all maxed out in DAVE with great care taken in every area to isolate noise and RFI.
    Fair enough, but does it use SMPS, as opposed to regulated linear PSUs? If so, for me the jury's out, in terms of what influence that will have on its sound, and crucially how the noise SMPS units chuck onto the mains, affects other components sharing the same supply.

    We've already had discussions on AoS where our resident EEs have confirmed that, although SMPS done well can be very good, it's still not going to as good as the BEST examples of the linear regulated variety.

    I'm old school, and so believe that any truly great piece of hi-fi equipment starts with a a truly great (overspecced) regulated linear PSU, and that no compromises whatsoever should be made in that area, in order for said equipment to excel, sonically. The power supply is the beating heart of all hi-fi equipment! And so that's *always* where most of the money should be spent.

    As Jez has touched upon recently, pretty soon regulated linear PSUs will be banned by the regs, so SMPS is the future, but ultimately, it is still a compromise, so for me that's where the best vintage equipment, which has been maxed out in that area, will always have an advantage.

    I spent just over £2k on PSU modifications/re-clocking circuits, from Audiocom, to further max out an already overspecced PSU arrangement in the Sonys, which made an enormous difference to how they performed, so I *know* just how significant and influential PSU arrangements are in digital equipment.

    Just so you know the cost of the Sonys (as I don't think I've mentioned it to you before), I paid just under £2k for them second hand, and so with the Audoicom mods, you're looking at just over £4k's worth of digital front end. It's not just some old tat I bought cheaply on ebay and have claimed as an unjustified 'giant-killer'. Trust me, it fully earns that title, as anyone who's heard it will confirm.

    I have mentioned DAVE as it is the best DAC I have ever heard but Hugo is also amazing and the Hugo TT. The only reason I have illustrated my thoughts on digital using DAVE as an example is because it fundamentally changed my views on what digital audio could achieve. I have heard some very expensive CD players put up against this device and frankly they just sound like CD.
    No problem, it's your current benchmark. I totally get that, and it's impressed you, so you're right to rave about it!

    I have never heard some of the old school CD players Macca and Marco suggest are very good so I cannot comment on them but if they were so good why are they no longer manufactured or the companies manufacturing them producing something that good. Maybe its because many folk have moved away from CD and stream or use FBA but surely if there was an audiophile market still out there for these CDP they would still be sold?
    Many reasons, but mostly cost. Quite simply, if the Sonys I've got were made today, they'd probably cost more to produce than the DAVE! The DAS-R1 DAC alone retailed for £1500, in 1989. How much would that equate to in today's money?

    Aside from that, these things were built as 'cost no object' projects by huge companies like Sony, 'flexing their muscles' and showing the world just how good CD could sound. To build something similar today would be prohibitively expensive, particularly as Philips TDA 1541s are costly to implement optimally.

    Also, as you've mentioned, the market just isn't there now for high-end CDPs, so when it comes to the X-777ES, almost no-one's building players now with proper CD-only transport mechs (such as the VRDS NEO I linked to earlier), and simply using cheap-as-chips (but grossly inferior) plastic DVD ROMs.

    Therefore, as I said, it all comes down to cost and the fact that virtually no-one today would buy what it would take to produce a 'cost no object' CDP, in the way of the best ones from the heyday of CD, and when the major Jap players were building their very impressive 'statement' products, all based on optimising solid engineering principles, not on cost, convenience, miniaturisation, or creating the latest 'technology fad', to brainwash buyers into believing its the best, as is so much hi-fi equipment that's produced nowadays.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  2. #92
    Join Date: May 2009

    Location: gone away

    Posts: 4,870
    I'm joe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post

    Many reasons, but mostly cost. Quite simply, if the Sonys I've got were made today, they'd probably cost more to produce than the DAVE! The DAS-R1 DAC alone retailed for £1500, in 1989. How much would that equate to in today's money?
    Not that much actually, on an adjusted-for-inflation basis £1,500 in 1987 equates to £3,425 today according to the Bank of England's inflation calculator. But of course high-end hifi prices have gone silly in the past few years, so I doubt it'd be sold at that level, as that wouldn't be 'statement' enough.

  3. #93
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

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    Take a read of this post which explains a little better than I could the PSU in DAVE. Just scroll down to Rob Watts explanation.

    https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chor...66517/page-270
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  4. #94
    Join Date: Nov 2008

    Location: North Down /Northern Ireland/ UK

    Posts: 19,484
    I'm Neil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Fair enough, but does it use SMPS, as opposed to regulated linear PSUs? If so, for me the jury's out, in terms of what influence that will have on its sound, and crucially how the noise SMPS units chuck onto the mains, affects other components sharing the same supply.

    We've already had discussions on AoS where our resident EEs have confirmed that, although SMPS done well can be very good, it's still not going to as good as the BEST examples of the linear regulated variety.

    I'm old school, and so believe that any truly great piece of hi-fi equipment starts with a a truly great (overspecced) regulated linear PSU, and that no compromises whatsoever should be made in that area, in order for said equipment to excel, sonically. The power supply is the beating heart of all hi-fi equipment! And so that's always where most of the money should be spent.

    As Jez has touched upon recently, pretty soon regulated linear PSUs will be banned by the regs, so SMPS is the future, but ultimately, it is still a compromise, so for me that's where the best vintage equipment, which has been maxed out in that area, will always have an advantage.

    I spent just over £2k on PSU modifications/re-clocking circuits, from Audiocom, to further max out an already overspecced PSU arrangement in the Sonys, which made an enormous difference to how they performed, so I *know* just how significant and influential PSU arrangements are in digital equipment.

    Just so you know the cost of the Sonys (as I don't think I've mentioned it to you before), I paid just under £2k for them second hand, and so with the Audoicom mods, you're looking at just over £4k's worth of digital front end. It's not just some old tat I bought cheaply on ebay and have claimed as an unjustified 'giant-killer'. Trust me, it fully earns that title, as anyone who's heard it will confirm.



    No problem, it's your current benchmark. I totally get that, and it's impressed you, so you're right to rave about it!



    Many reasons, but mostly cost. Quite simply, if the Sonys I've got were made today, they'd probably cost more to produce than the DAVE! The DAS-R1 DAC alone retailed for £1500, in 1989. How much would that equate to in today's money?

    Aside from that, these things were built as 'cost no object' projects by huge companies like Sony, 'flexing their muscles' and showing the world just how good CD could sound. To build something similar today would be prohibitively expensive, particularly as Philips TDA 1541s are costly to implement optimally.

    Also, as you've mentioned, the market just isn't there now for high-end CDPs, so when it comes to the X-777ES, almost no-one's building players now with proper CD-only transport mechs (such as the VRDS NEO I linked to earlier), and simply using cheap-as-chips (but grossly inferior) plastic DVD ROMs.

    Therefore, as I said, it all comes down to cost and the fact that virtually no-one today would buy what it would take to produce a 'cost no object' CDP, in the way of the best ones from the heyday of CD, and when the major Jap players were building their very impressive 'statement' products, all based on optimising solid engineering principles, not on cost, convenience, miniaturisation, or creating the latest 'technology fad', to brainwash buyers into believing its the best, as is so much hi-fi equipment that's produced nowadays.

    Marco.
    Most of the top players of the day were statement items that actually made little to no money for the likes of Marantz, Sony, Denon etc. The money came in trickle down and more mass market players.

    I am sure your DAS R1 is stunningly good, but limited now in regards to it will only decode red book, or hi rez files converted to red book, and the USB to Coax converter required - if using a PC/Mac source - will have to be very good so as not to mess things up - those make a big difference.

    I have three very good DACs, and excellent transports and I still prefer vinyl.
    Regards Neil

  5. #95
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    Not that much actually, on an adjusted-for-inflation basis £1,500 in 1987 equates to £3,425 today according to the Bank of England's inflation calculator. But of course high-end hifi prices have gone silly in the past few years, so I doubt it'd be sold at that level, as that wouldn't be 'statement' enough.
    Indeed, so that's around £3.5k before, as you say, today's "silly" high-end pricing.

    So let's conservatively double that, then you've got the cost of producing something of the ilk of an X-777ES, or the partnering Sony R1 transport, which I originally bought with the DAS-R1 DAC, which would be equally as expensive, if not more so, therefore that gives you an inking into what something likes that would cost nowadays - and that's excluding what I've spent on mods, on top of that!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #96
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Take a read of this post which explains a little better than I could the PSU in DAVE. Just scroll down to Rob Watts explanation.

    https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chor...66517/page-270
    Will do, Jim, but as you said, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, or rather the listening!

    It would be good to have a bake-off with this at NEBO, but we'd need someone there who owns a DAVE...

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #97
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Will do, Jim, but as you said, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, or rather the listening!

    It would be good to have a bake-off with this at NEBO, but we'd need someone there who owns a DAVE...

    Marco.
    Yes listening is definitely the only absolute way to know if anything is any good and not sure if anyone on AOS has one . The one I listen too belongs to Steve and the only way of getting to listen to his is by visiting his business.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  8. #98
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Supreme D L View Post
    Most of the top players of the day were statement items that actually made little to no money for the likes of Marantz, Sony, Denon etc. The money came in trickle down and more mass market players.
    Indeed, and that rarely happens now. The whole approach and focus today with audio has completely changed, simply because the market (and potential customer base) has.

    I am sure your DAS R1 is stunningly good, but limited now in regards to it will only decode red book, or hi rez files converted to red book, and the USB to Coax converter required - if using a PC/Mac source - will have to be very good so as not to mess things up - those make a big difference.
    Indeed, which is why it's not used for that purpose, and simply to reproduce red book CD to the highest standard

    I have three very good DACs, and excellent transports and I still prefer vinyl.
    So do I with the best recordings, just!

    However, given the best recordings, both on vinyl and CD, you can put a piece of fag paper between the Techy and the Sonys, in terms of how good they are at making recorded music sound believable and real.

    I just don't think that many folks today, for a variety of reasons (and I don't include you in this), have genuinely heard CD at its absolute best.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #99
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Yes listening is definitely the only absolute way to know if anything is any good and not sure if anyone on AOS has one . The one I listen too belongs to Steve and the only way of getting to listen to his is by visiting his business.
    Do you think he'd be up for me bringing the Sonys along to his place, to compare with the DAVE, and then reporting the results on AoS? If he'd be up for that, I certainly would be!

    If he's truly got confidence in his product, and it's as good as you say it is, he should welcome subjecting it to such scrutiny

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #100
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Supreme D L View Post
    Most of the top players of the day were statement items that actually made little to no money for the likes of Marantz, Sony, Denon etc. The money came in trickle down and more mass market players.

    I am sure your DAS R1 is stunningly good, but limited now in regards to it will only decode red book, or hi rez files converted to red book, and the USB to Coax converter required - if using a PC/Mac source - will have to be very good so as not to mess things up - those make a big difference.

    I have three very good DACs, and excellent transports and I still prefer vinyl.
    From what I have heard Neil I agree with you - I still prefer vinyl but it would be handy to have a top notch digital system. I have heard the Moon Andromeda CD player you have and actually used this to compare against a FBA system.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

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