what is the secret?

[the_doc735]

I've seen this suggested a few times now and I still can't work out why. It doesn't use any new or ground-breaking technology, it might have a fancy case but it's just solid state amp and a DAC in the same box. Advertising campaigns are expensive but I don't count that in with 'development'.

The reality is that sound reproduction is age old tech, the idea that these companies have huge labs full of white coated scientists and technicians beavering away making new discoveries and advancing the frontiers is absurd, but I suppose people want to believe so they do.

Ar yes! - good point and well said, I believe in this thinking too (in most cases).

[the_doc735]

Would that more people took this attitude.... Unfortunately many people (most maybe?) do seem to buy with their eyes and many companies have well understood this for years. I repaired a pair of cheap (£500) monoblocks a few weeks ago, made by a Wembley based company.... Externally we're talking a pair of cylindrical cases which have the appearance of carved out of solid... and indeed most of the money has gone on the casework! Remove the innards and it's OMG! Worse than a 3020 in build quality and component quality! Everything was as cheap as it's possible to get and the transformers tiny...

I have mooted the idea a few times of building gear in cheapo casework to allow the money to be spent on the innards where it matters... the consensus view of this seems to be "oh no if I'm paying £600 for a phono stage I want it to look the part..." OK well it's just gone up to £800 for the same thing in a nice box then.... That's how it works. People are more concerned with the appearance of quality rather than actual quality so it seems.

I've told this tale a few times but it is pertinent to this so here it is again... When I finished the design of the Alchemist Axiom integrated amp and first samples in the intended pretty bling casework were built up we had a visit from the companies biggest customer by far... a far east importer and distributor from IIRC Singapore (complete with two menservants who followed him around and lit his cigarettes for him etc!!). I was eager to demonstrate "my baby" but I was brusquely told by him that he had no interest in what it sounded like!! He then went into detailed talks with the casework designer demanding even more bling, gold plated knobs etc etc... which he got of course and smaller smoothing caps were fitted to the amps to help pay for this... THAT's how it works in practice

I really like this thinking and prefer money to be spent on the sound, not the fancy case! Interesting in a review of the sergeant 2A3 amp, the reviewer said: "this amp is worth a lot more than a mere £2000 and if he put the innards in a fancy chrome case with gold knobs he could push it out for £6000"!!

[the_doc735]

It's a possibility yes... but then big companies go bust etc. Who would have thought BHS or Woolworths would disappear like that!? Plenty of well known hi-fi brands have disappeared virtually over night as well. Look at once huge players in the hi fi market like Leak and Goodmans... gone... never mind all the small to medium ones (which were a lot more than a one man band cottage industry) such as Myst, RAM, Tangent, Lecson, Lentek, Nytech, Heybrook etc etc!! On the other hand, if dealing with a one man band or very small company one can usually get to speak to the designer in person, and can often have things modified to any special requirements etc. You're also not likely to get a daft receptionist when ringing up who is only too keen to tell you "the computer says no..." or "there's a £350 standard charge to repair that even if all we find is a dead fuse..."

oh yes - very good point in case, this!

[the_doc735]

Well then, those guilty should be named and shamed, and their sham products exposed for what they are. I'd be happy to use AoS to facilitate it. All we're interested in here is supporting the genuine guys, who're in the business for the RIGHT reasons.

The rest deserve to have their deceit exposed, so that folks know *exactly* what's going on and can avoid buying their fake equipment.

Marco.

well said!

[the_doc735]

Sport is one of those things I've never really "got" either.... Motorsport sure, all that high tech petrolheadery and the fact that the riders/drivers risk death every lap! other sports... nah.. not really... and football? I'll never understand the obsession, verging on worship, shown by so many of my fellow males of the species (and a lot of women these days).. 22 blokes slowly going around a field trying to get a ball in a net for no good reason is about all I see

[Arkless Electronics]

Well then, those guilty should be named and shamed, and their sham products exposed for what they are. I'd be happy to use AoS to facilitate it. All we're interested in here is supporting the genuine guys, who're in the business for the RIGHT reasons.

The rest deserve to have their deceit exposed, so that folks know *exactly* what's going on and can avoid buying their fake equipment.

Marco.

I've mentioned various snippets of this over the years both here and on pfm and was amazed to find that the general response was kind of "and?" Even when it was a case of them literally selling fake equipment! There were amps sold which had different innards to that suggested by the model number on the front panel... very different in fact. They had orders for a popular model but no PCB's, so as they were interchangeable to save on metal work costs, they just took boards from a mosfet amp and fitted them in a case saying it was a class A bipolar transistor amp and turned up the bias till it got hot enough for no one to question it! These were completely different topologies and sounded very different.

[Marco]

oh yes - very good point in case, this!

The problem you have too, is our innate propensity for believing that 'newest = best', thus automatically better than any 'obsolete old 'tat'... It's often hard to shake off that mindset. I mean, significant progress, in *every* aspect of audio design, must've been made since the 1950s - surely??

You see that sort of marketing all the time from hi-fi companies, and that such and such has been "designed using the latest new technology", as if acting as some form of automatic guarantee that you can't get any better, which in my experience is rarely true. More often than not, the opposite applies!

Said "latest [shiny] new technology" often has key aspects of its design, which compromise performance, in the pursuit of low-cost and convenience. THAT is the unfortunate reality.

Witness, for example, the plethora of diddy-sized squawk boxes on the market, posing as loudspeakers, crammed full of "latest technology" drive units and cabinets, none of which successfully override the laws of physics [i.e. ultimately size matters]!

Not to mention the plethora of commercially produced amplifiers, built using "the latest new technology", but with piss-poor SMPS units at the heart of their design, ultimately limiting their sonic potential. That's not to say, however, that you can't get top-quality SMPS units, designed to exploit the full potential of said technology, simply that it rarely features in mass-produced commercial equipment.

That's usually why, after having attended a hi-fi show and been rather disappointed listening to a variety of equipment demonstrating the so-called 'wonders of new technology', I sit down, spin a favourite LP, and revel in the beautiful sounding music emitting from my 'obsolete old tat'...

Marco.

[Marco]

I've mentioned various snippets of this over the years both here and on pfm and was amazed to find that the general response was kind of "and?" Even when it was a case of them literally selling fake equipment! There were amps sold which had different innards to that suggested by the model number on the front panel... very different in fact. They had orders for a popular model but no PCB's, so as they were interchangeable to save on metal work costs, they just took boards from a mosfet amp and fitted them in a case saying it was a class A bipolar transistor amp and turned up the bias till it got hot enough for no one to question it! These were completely different topologies and sounded very different.

Shocking stuff, Jez. Perhaps not enough people care? It's certainly a sad indictment on what is supposed to be a hobby for enthusiasts...

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

The problem you have too, is our innate propensity for believing that 'newest = best', thus automatically better than any 'obsolete old 'tat'... It's often hard to shake off that mindset. I mean, significant progress, in *every* aspect of audio design, must've been made since the 1950s - surely??

You see that sort of marketing all the time from hi-fi companies, and that such and such has been "designed using the latest new technology", as if acting as some form of automatic guarantee that you can't get any better, which in my experience is rarely true. More often than not, the opposite applies.

Said "latest [shiny] new technology" often has key aspects of its design, which compromise performance, in the pursuit of low-cost and convenience. THAT is the unfortunate reality.

Witness, for example, the plethora of diddy-sized squawk boxes on the market, posing as loudspeakers, crammed full of "latest technology" drive units and cabinets, none of which successfully override the laws of physics [i.e. ultimately size matters]!

Not to mention the plethora of commercially produced amplifiers, built using "the latest new technology", but with piss-poor SMPS units at the heart of their design, ultimately limiting their sonic potential. That's not to say, however, that you can't get top-quality SMPS units, designed to exploit the full potential of said technology, simply that it rarely features in mass-produced commercial equipment.

That's usually why, after having attended a hi-fi show and been rather disappointed listening to a variety of equipment demonstrating the so-called 'wonders of new technology', I sit down, spin a favourite LP, and revel in the beautiful sounding music emitting from my 'obsolete old tat'...

Marco.

But I thought the laws of physics didn't apply to subjectivists?

[Marco]

Ha - they do when applied to loudspeakers!

I like to shift some air.......

Marco.