what is the secret?

[the_doc735]

what is the secret?

what makes amps like: art audio, jadis, ayon, audio research, McIntosh, E.A.R., so expensive? (e.g. £5000 - £19000!)....

I mean just like a £1000 amp, they share common components like: valves, transformers, PCB, point to point wiring, caps., resistors, diodes, sockets, a case!

And, how do you get to hear these 'beauties' without buying them?

[walpurgis]

For a start, bespoke heavyweight transformers in small batches are very expensive.

With the names you mention, I'd suggest the sound quality may speak for itself.

[struth]

quality parts and labour, usually in this country eaning higher wages. better designs too often. level of fit n finish....all costs dough, plus the addons from middlemen

[Marco]

Badge snobbery?

Trust me, with most high-end gear, the badge itself has considerable 'intrinsic value'!

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Risking being patronising... I'll have a go.

Supply and demand, wages, dealers margin, distributors margin, cost of guarantee returns and R&D expenses are the main things IMHO.

When we're talking big name companies (in high end hi fi this could mean employing as few as 15 ish people. When I was at Musical Fidelity they had I reckon about 50-80 employees and they are pretty big in this country) with international and national distributors and loads of dealers etc (glossy adds in the mags 'n all that) then if an amp costs the maker £700 in parts and labour before it leaves the factory then it will be more like £5000+ when you buy it from a dealer. About half goes to the dealer!

Point to point wiring is VERY labour intensive and obviously can only be done by hand. Not that it makes any difference to the sound.

Casework gets really expensive when we're talking 1/2" thick machined front panels etc and real hardwood end panels etc as well of course.

A lot more of it is down to you bleedin' audiophiles!!! Snob value, having to have the "component of the year", perceiving certain brands to be worth THAT kind of money just 'cos it's that particular brand, even though it may be not as good in design, build or sound as a relatively unknown brand. If myself or Firebottle announced that we've brought out an answer to Krell's (Conrad Johnson, Kondo whatever) top of the range £35,000 mono blocks and at "only" £7000 would anyone, anywhere be even the slightest bit interested? Nope. Why? 'cos it doesn't say KRELL on the front and you can't impress your audiophile mates by saying "I've just bought the new Krell GTI Super Turbo MkIII" or whatever Hence they can get away with charging that much... it's "what the market will stand"

[Marco]

Snob value, having to have the "component of the year", perceiving certain brands to be worth THAT kind of money just 'cos it's that particular brand, even though it may be not as good in design, build or sound as a relatively unknown brand. If myself or Firebottle announced that we've brought out an answer to Krell's (Conrad Johnson, Kondo whatever) top of the range £35,000 mono blocks and at "only" £7000 would anyone, anywhere be even the slightest bit interested? Nope. Why? 'cos it doesn't say KRELL on the front and you can't impress your audiophile mates by saying "I've just bought the new Krell GTI Super Turbo MkIII" or whatever

Hence they can get away with charging that much... it's "what the market will stand"

Yup, which is pretty much what I've said above. I gave up being influenced by 'badges' and buying hi-fi that way years ago. Nowadays, it's all about maximising SPPV!



Marco.

[Marco]

Also, folks worry too much about resale value, which is why they buy well-known brands, as it's easy to sell on, rather than (often better sounding and less expensive) equipment from smaller, specialist manufacturers.

Well, if the gear is really good in the first place, then get good use out of it and enjoy it, that way you won't have to worry too much about its 'resale value'!

The fact is, system satisfaction kills box-swapping.... Seriously though, there are way too many box-swappers around for their own good, who unlike Jerry, are kidding themselves on that they're enjoying the process, when in reality they're simply chasing their tails, whilst increasing disillusionment and draining their bank balance.

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Also, folks worry too much about resale value, which is why they buy well-known brands, as it's easy to sell on, rather than (often better sounding and less expensive) equipment from smaller, specialist manufacturers.

Well, if the gear is really good in the first place, then get good use out of it and enjoy it, that way you won't have to worry too much about its 'resale value'!

The fact is, system satisfaction kills box-swapping.... Seriously though, there are way too many box-swappers around for their own good, who unlike Jerry, are kidding themselves on that they're enjoying the process, when in reality they're simply chasing their tails, whilst increasing disillusionment and draining their bank balance.

Marco.

Yes indeedy. I've never really "got" this box swapping thing myself but it is disturbingly common it seems... I've known people who never have any single item of equipment for more than 6 months... and often an item will last more like 3 weeks before being moved on! Even when an item is "the best I've ever heard. This is a keeper"... it will soon be moved on

It's the curse of small companies like myself as of course Mr box swapper only ever buys big brand name makes, which he knows he will have no trouble getting back what he paid for it and it will sell itself....

[the_doc735]

For a start, bespoke heavyweight transformers in small batches are very expensive.

With the names you mention, I'd suggest the sound quality may speak for itself.

quality parts and labour, usually in this country eaning higher wages. better designs too often. level of fit n finish....all costs dough, plus the addons from middlemen

Badge snobbery?

Trust me, with most high-end gear, the badge itself has considerable 'intrinsic value'!

Marco.

Risking being patronising... I'll have a go.

Supply and demand, wages, dealers margin, distributors margin, cost of guarantee returns and R&D expenses are the main things IMHO.

When we're talking big name companies (in high end hi fi this could mean employing as few as 15 ish people. When I was at Musical Fidelity they had I reckon about 50-80 employees and they are pretty big in this country) with international and national distributors and loads of dealers etc (glossy adds in the mags 'n all that) then if an amp costs the maker £700 in parts and labour before it leaves the factory then it will be more like £5000+ when you buy it from a dealer. About half goes to the dealer!

Point to point wiring is VERY labour intensive and obviously can only be done by hand. Not that it makes any difference to the sound.

Casework gets really expensive when we're talking 1/2" thick machined front panels etc and real hardwood end panels etc as well of course.

A lot more of it is down to you bleedin' audiophiles!!! Snob value, having to have the "component of the year", perceiving certain brands to be worth THAT kind of money just 'cos it's that particular brand, even though it may be not as good in design, build or sound as a relatively unknown brand. If myself or Firebottle announced that we've brought out an answer to Krell's (Conrad Johnson, Kondo whatever) top of the range £35,000 mono blocks and at "only" £7000 would anyone, anywhere be even the slightest bit interested? Nope. Why? 'cos it doesn't say KRELL on the front and you can't impress your audiophile mates by saying "I've just bought the new Krell GTI Super Turbo MkIII" or whatever Hence they can get away with charging that much... it's "what the market will stand"

Yup, which is pretty much what I've said above. I gave up being influenced by 'badges' and buying hi-fi that way years ago. Nowadays, it's all about maximising SPPV!



Marco.

Also, folks worry too much about resale value, which is why they buy well-known brands, as it's easy to sell on, rather than (often better sounding and less expensive) equipment from smaller, specialist manufacturers.

Well, if the gear is really good in the first place, then get good use out of it and enjoy it, that way you won't have to worry too much about its 'resale value'!

The fact is, system satisfaction kills box-swapping.... Seriously though, there are way too many box-swappers around for their own good, who unlike Jerry, are kidding themselves on that they're enjoying the process, when in reality they're simply chasing their tails, whilst simply increasing disillusionment and draining their bank balance.

Marco.

Yes indeedy. I've never really "got" this box swapping thing myself but it is disturbingly common it seems... I've known people who never have any single item of equipment for more than 6 months... and often an item will last more like 3 weeks before being moved on! Even when an item is "the best I've ever heard. This is a keeper"... it will soon be moved on

It's the curse of small companies like myself as of course Mr box swapper only ever buys big brand name makes, which he knows he will have no trouble getting back what he paid for it and it will sell itself....

well, john wood & guy sergeant amps have "bespoke heavyweight transformers" and their amps don't cost an arm and a leg and produce a high quality sound.

" labour, usually in this country eaning higher wages. level of fit n finish, plus the 'addons from all the middlemen" ....all costs dough!
Yes, but not necessarily higher quality parts or 'better designs' than those found in J.WOOD & Guy Sergeant amps.

Badge snobbery ~ as I thought too!

"Supply and demand, wages, dealers margin, distributors margin, cost of guarantee returns and R&D expenses are the main things" ~ as I thought too!

"Casework gets really expensive when we're talking 1/2" thick machined front panels etc and real hardwood end panels etc. Point to point wiring is VERY labour intensive! When we're talking big name companies (in high end hi fi this could mean employing as few as 15 ish people. When I was at Musical Fidelity they had I reckon about 50-80 employees and they are pretty big in this country) with international and national distributors and loads of dealers etc (glossy adds in the mags 'n all that) then if an amp costs the maker £700 in parts and labour before it leaves the factory then it will be more like £5000+ when you buy it from a dealer. About half goes to the dealer!" ~ yes I tend to agree!

The Krell example is a good case in point actually!

"I gave up being influenced by 'badges' and buying hi-fi that way years ago. Nowadays, it's all about maximising SPPV!" ~ yes I thought badge snobbery would be a big factor too.

"folks worry too much about resale value, which is why they buy well-known brands, as it's easy to sell on, rather than (often better sounding and less expensive) equipment from smaller, specialist manufacturers. Well, if the gear is really good in the first place, then get good use out of it and enjoy it, that way you won't have to worry too much about its 'resale value'! The fact is, system satisfaction kills box-swapping.... Seriously though, there are way too many box-swappers around for their own good, who unlike Jerry, are kidding themselves on that they're enjoying the process, when in reality they're simply chasing their tails, whilst simply increasing disillusionment and draining their bank balance.".
Sounds sensible, I have fallen prey to the swapping thing too, unfortunately for the wallet! The most I ever paid was for the Sophia's and I.M.O. weren't all that good compared to much cheaper amps!!

"I've never really "got" this box swapping thing myself but it is disturbingly common it seems... I've known people who never have any single item of equipment for more than 6 months... and often an item will last more like 3 weeks before being moved on! Even when an item is "the best I've ever heard. This is a keeper"... it will soon be moved on"

"It's the curse of small companies like myself as of course Mr box swapper only ever buys big brand name makes, which he knows he will have no trouble getting back what he paid for it and it will sell itself..."
Really? ...well I have seen big brand names on ebay for sale, for months & months & months on end, some over a year and they still remain unsold to this day!! Things over £2000-3000 as a general rule.

[walpurgis]

So many contrary positions. So little time..............