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Thread: The perils of modifying gear

  1. #31
    Join Date: Mar 2010

    Location: Sheffield

    Posts: 2,898
    I'm Simon.

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    Interconnects can sound different.
    Loudspeaker cables can sound different.

    Yet out of every field of scientific endeavour only a subset of audiophiles 'believe' mains cables make a difference to the performance of what is plugged into them. Why do you think that is? Our hearing is band limited more than all decent microphones. Oscilloscopes and distortion analyzers are two orders of magnitude more accurate than our ears, and no piece of electrical measurement gear is affected by sighted, confirmation, or any other type of experimental bias.

    On the balance of probabilities, it does seem like the simple answer is that some of us are just fooling ourselves...being duped into parting large sums of money.
    Kuzma Stabi/S 12", (LP12-bastard) DC motor and optical tacho psu, Benz LP, Paradise (phonostage). MB-Pro, Brooklyn dac and psu, Bruno Putzeys balanced pre, mod86p dual mono amps, Yamaha NS1000m

  2. #32
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sq225917 View Post
    Oscilloscopes and distortion analyzers are two orders of magnitude more accurate than our ears...
    Yes, but "accurate" at precisely what? They can only measure what they've been designed to measure, not what *actually* MAY need measuring, if we're hearing something that genuinely exists, but which said apparatus isn't designed to reveal.

    In any field of work, you have to employ the right tool(s) for the job, if you want it to achieve what's necessary.... Perhaps things are being attacked from the wrong angle?

    In my view, considering that many thousands of discerning audio enthusiasts all over the world, with good hi-fi systems, have reported hearing easily discernible and repeatable differences between mains leads designed for hi-fi purposes, and standard 'kettle leads', although undoubtedly it does happen, there's likely more to it than simply folks being fooled.

    That's lazy thinking, in my view, and is often as much about objectivists resolutely not willing to entertain the existence of anything that falls out with of their scientific belief system, as 'audiophiles' being duped by expectation bias...

    Confirmation bias, after all, (the tendency to search for, interpret, favour, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses) is just as controlling and influential a phenomenon, as its 'Expectation' counterpart

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #33
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: The Black Country

    Posts: 6,089
    I'm Alan.

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    If I said I was expecting a confirmation of my bias, would that cover all bases?


  4. #34
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sq225917 View Post
    Interconnects can sound different.
    Loudspeaker cables can sound different.

    Yet out of every field of scientific endeavour only a subset of audiophiles 'believe' mains cables make a difference to the performance of what is plugged into them. Why do you think that is? Our hearing is band limited more than all decent microphones. Oscilloscopes and distortion analyzers are two orders of magnitude more accurate than our ears, and no piece of electrical measurement gear is affected by sighted, confirmation, or any other type of experimental bias.

    On the balance of probabilities, it does seem like the simple answer is that some of us are just fooling ourselves...being duped into parting large sums of money.


    Indeed that is the only possible conclusion.
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  5. #35
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Not at all, Jez. It's is simply your view. Mine (as stated above) is equally as valid, so the more you stamp your feet and tell me I'm wrong, the more I'll do the same with you...! You're qualified to judge things relating to your electronics expertise, but not what I can and can't hear!

    The reality is, you won't change my mind and I won't change yours, so where does it all end? Answer: a pointless circular argument and (very likely) fallouts.

    Solution: simply 'agree to disagree' and move on. Better still, don't make absolutist statements, designed to irk those who think differently from you in the first place

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #36
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Not at all, Jez. It's is simply your view. Mine (as stated above) is equally as valid, so the more you stamp your feet and tell me I'm wrong, the more I'll do the same with you...! You're qualified to judge things relating to your electronics expertise, but not what I can and can't hear!

    The reality is, you won't change my mind and I won't change yours, so where does it all end? Answer: a pointless circular argument and (very likely) fallouts.

    Solution: simply 'agree to disagree' and move on. Better still, don't make absolutist statements, designed to irk those who think differently from you in the first place

    Marco.
    I could say to you don't make statements that go against ALL scientific knowledge as well

    We'll never agree, as you say, but I also will never say there is even a remote possibility that you are right
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  7. #37
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    We'll that's fine, and I'll say that I trust what my ears and (considerable) experience tell me - and always will, no matter what 'currently accepted wisdom' dictates to the contrary. Best leave it there now

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  8. #38
    Join Date: May 2009

    Location: gone away

    Posts: 4,870
    I'm joe.

    Default

    As a ham-fisted technophobe who can be (just about) trusted to wire a plug or change a lightbulb, I've never attempted to modify anything electrical. The 'perils' for me would include electrocution and sudden death. 'Listener fatigue' brought about by 'too much detail' would be least of my worries.

  9. #39
    Join Date: Mar 2010

    Location: Sheffield

    Posts: 2,898
    I'm Simon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Yes, but "accurate" at precisely what? ...

    Marco.
    Accurate at measuring electrical signals, the same electrical signals that make the music.



    Think about it this way.

    Either 'some' cable owners have fooled themselves, or every electrical engineer who ever build something sciency, and expensive and not hifi is wrong.
    All those tunneling electron microscope designer- missing a trick.
    All of NASA, missing a trick
    The large hadron collider- missing a trick
    Every military piece of hardware that plugs into the wall- missing a trick

    Or 'some' hifi owners- fooled...

    Just on the basis of probabilities alone, the chances of science being wrong is incredible.

    It's as daft as believing in flying spaghetti monsters, and his less trendy alternatives.
    Kuzma Stabi/S 12", (LP12-bastard) DC motor and optical tacho psu, Benz LP, Paradise (phonostage). MB-Pro, Brooklyn dac and psu, Bruno Putzeys balanced pre, mod86p dual mono amps, Yamaha NS1000m

  10. #40
    Join Date: Jul 2017

    Location: Doncaster

    Posts: 16
    I'm Michael.

    Default

    My modifying past has mostly been concerned with trying to improve power supplies. I am not electrically intelligent enough to design an amplifier or dac circuit from scratch and have only dabbled around the edges like changing components, playing with decoupling.

    What I enjoyed the most was say adding more psu's to a cd player or swapping out regulators. Also found it interesting comparing different types and sizes of transformer and their placement with regards to sensitive circuitry.

    I have had to back track a number of times but hey it's all subjective learning. No test equipment here. Not everything that you think should be an improvement is actually better. This is not known until you try it on that particular circuit.

    Give me a good EI transformer over a toroidal any day of the week.
    Last edited by Eileen Dover; 21-08-2017 at 15:45. Reason: spooling

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