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Thread: The perils of modifying gear

  1. #81
    Join Date: Jul 2009

    Location: Hampshire, UK

    Posts: 3,662
    I'm Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    So did that apply when you used to work for HFW, and David Price was championing (from the rooftops, and correctly so) about just how good a Technics SL-1200 could sound, after being judiciously [the key word again here] modified?

    Presumably then, according to your logic, National Panasonic/Matsushita Electric (one of the large organisations in question) had produced a better product *before* the modifications David rightly concluded (to anyone with a functioning pair of ears) had significantly improved the Technics?

    Remember that, at the end of the day, everything is built to a price!

    Marco.
    Firstly, Marco as you know, I'm not as enthusiastic regarding the efficacy of Technics Sl-1200 modifications as you are, particularly with regard to their performance-to-price ratio.

    Secondly, none of the mods we tested were carried out by 'shed-based bodgers'!
    Engineers: fixing problems you didn't know you had in ways you don't understand.

  2. #82
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    ....and neither have any of the mods I've had carried out, to any of my gear, not just the Techy. All done by qualified EEs, who guarantee their work. I wouldn't have it any other way!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #83
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beobloke View Post
    Firstly, Marco as you know, I'm not as enthusiastic regarding the efficacy of Technics Sl-1200 modifications as you are, particularly with regard to their performance-to-price ratio.
    You want to have listen to Marco's Technics, I think you'd change your mind.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  4. #84
    Join Date: Aug 2010

    Location: Torquay, Devon.

    Posts: 5,684
    I'm Shane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beobloke View Post
    The problem I have with modifications is that some people don't know when to stop, or what the consequences are of the changes they are making. I have absolutely no problem if people want to mess around with interconnect, speaker and mains cables as this is a fairly harmless (mostly...) pastime but, as an engineer, I do get quite irritated by enthusiastic bodgers thinking they know better than the qualified design teams of large organisations delving into equipment and faffing around with it. I know of several manufacturers' repair departments that spend much more time than they would like, undoing modifications to their products to make them work again, and I've done it myself on more than one occasion.

    As an example, internet "wisdom" has long prevailed that changing capacitors can cure all known ills but often it can do more harm than good - witness someone I know of who changed all the caps in his high end direct drive turntable "as a precaution" and completely stopped it working! A friend of mine who does a great deal of repairs now adds a minimum of £10 to his repair costs if the owner confesses to having already changed capacitors - I've even known him to take the new ones out and put the old ones back in, once he's proved there is absolutely nothing wrong with them!

    As an aside, the latest episode that is annoying me is a chap on a different forum who is currently "modifying" a fine pair of Mordaunt Short bookshelf speakers by slapping unnecessary coatings all over the drivers, attacking the cabinets with a chainsaw and junking the crossovers. I used to work with the guys who designed this speaker and we used them on many occasions for reference duty at Mordaunt Short - they were actually something of a 'sleeper' in the range and incorporated much of the technology that was adopted into the new range that followed them, at a lower price. However, the stuff he's removing was there for a very good reason and I would put money on it that the damn things will both measure appallingly and sound hideous when he's finished, which makes me a bit sad. And why is he doing all this? Because some other "expert" on the forum is egging him on by telling him it's a good idea!
    Now, that makes me feel infuriated reading that! What a perfect way to ruin an absolutely beautiful loudspeaker! The person is an arse!

    S.

  5. #85
    Join Date: May 2009

    Location: gone away

    Posts: 4,870
    I'm joe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I don't set out with that type of goal, Jez. For me, it's about increasing realism and musicality, so that when I listen, instruments and voices sound as palpable and as convincing as possible.
    I wonder if anyone sets out to modify equipment with the goal of decreasing realism and musicality, so that instruments and voices sound as feeble and as unconvincing as possible? 'My system is too convincing; it sounds like the musicians are right there in the room and playing together at their best. Could you modify it so it sounds like they're playing behind some thick curtains in a different room and are on the brink of splitting due to musical differences?'

  6. #86
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: gone

    Posts: 11,519
    I'm gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    These days, on the whole, I prefer to upgrade (as in replace) kit when funds allow rather than 'improve it' - on the basis only of auditioning it first. A rather more reliable way of improving the overall system.
    Absolutely my philosophy and always has been.

    Well, almost always. I have been tempted on a couple of occasions to "improve" the internals of kit, but it has always been poor vfm compared with just buying a better bit of kit!

    I admit to being baffled when the first thing someone does on acquiring a piece of kit is to send it off to be "improved".
    -- Yes, Tom, I'm thinking of you as well as some others!
    .

  7. #87
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    I wonder if anyone sets out to modify equipment with the goal of decreasing realism and musicality, so that instruments and voices sound as feeble and as unconvincing as possible? 'My system is too convincing; it sounds like the musicians are right there in the room and playing together at their best.

    Could you modify it so it sounds like they're playing behind some thick curtains in a different room and are on the brink of splitting due to musical differences?'
    Yes, easy-peasy. As Adam has outlined, simply apply some 'Doc Mods' to your speakers!!!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  8. #88
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    You want to have listen to Marco's Technics, I think you'd change your mind.
    Cheers, mate. I think Adam would be pleasantly surprised too, although his favoured Garrards still have better bass

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #89
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: gone

    Posts: 11,519
    I'm gone.

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    The Technics 1200 mods are an interesting special case.
    I can't recall exactly what Marco has done to his, but one I have seen and spent some time with cannot really be called a Techie 1200 anymore as pretty much everything except the chassis outer shell has been replaced!

    -- it did sound fantastic, though, in a balls-out, ultra-fast, slam you against the wall kind of way.
    .

  10. #90
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jandl100 View Post
    The Technics 1200 mods are an interesting special case.
    I can't recall exactly what Marco has done to his...
    Erm, it's all in my sig below (right at the very beginning), which is why it exists in such detailed form!

    The motor unit itself (the best bit), and its associated circuitry, is stock. Pretty much everything else, aside from the plinth, has been modified.

    ...but one I have seen and spent some time with cannot really be called a Techie 1200 anymore as pretty much everything except the chassis outer shell has been replaced!

    -- it did sound fantastic, though, in a balls-out, ultra-fast, slam you against the wall kind of way.
    Yes, you're of course referring to Martin T's, which I've heard myself on numerous occasions, in his old place and at shows, and which I've compared my own T/T directly against in the same system.

    Yes Martin's does sound fantastic, in the way you describe, but unless he's made some changes since, it was always a little 'cooler' sounding (more "balls out"), to my ears, than mine, I suspect mainly due to his selection of tonearm and cartridge.

    The Denon/Ortofon combo on my T/T gives it a somewhat more rounded, musically mellifluous sound, especially when used in conjunction with the valve phono stage in the Croft (as opposed to Martin's Vida), but not at the expense of overall detail.

    I did that because I'm acutely aware that the Techy has the tendency sometimes to sound a little too neutral and 'matter of fact' (for me it's a D/D thing), so I deliberately partnered mine with an arm and cartridge combination, which counteracts and balances that effect somewhat, in order to achieve synergy.

    It's horses for courses though, which you'd prefer, and likely also music dependent

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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