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Thread: Linear vs Switched mode PSU

  1. #201
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    Non of the above will make any difference whatsoever.... but I have no doubt 90% of the other answers you get will (wrongly IMO) say it will make a huge improvement. It's yet another area of hi fi where the power of suggestion combined with placebo effect and expectation bias... {BLAH, BLAH, BURP, WAFFLE, PHUT, FART}....


    Years of experience, from experimenting in that area, in all manner of different contexts and situations, with all types of equipment, tells me something rather different!!

    I guess all we can do is relate our respective 'takes' on the matter, for the perusal of the membership, and then let them decide for themselves on what course of action to take.....

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  2. #202
    Join Date: Jan 2015

    Location: Leeds

    Posts: 164
    I'm Dave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    Check out that diagram in a previous post of how mains current is used by equipment... It comes in in the form of sharp spikes at the voltage peaks of the mains waveform when the rectifier conducts. The mains is only (via a step down transformer) connected for between about 1 and 20% of the time (increases with current draw) and only at (or close to) the peaks so it doesn't really matter how distorted the waveform is!
    Check out any of the links I posted earlier. Those "sharp spikes" are actually very blunt compared to what goes on in a switching converter.
    The clue is in the "switching" bit.

  3. #203
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starterman View Post
    Check out any of the links I posted earlier. Those "sharp spikes" are actually very blunt compared to what goes on in a switching converter.
    The clue is in the "switching" bit.
    Gee you don't say?
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  4. #204
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,861
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    I have a dedicate ring of 16 sockets for my system. Whilst I was having the room decorated I took the opportunity to have some extra sockets fitted. When the sparky came to do it, he said that owing to the way the original ring was wired, it could not be extended or enlarged, so a separate ring would have to be installed with its own RCB and mains switch breaker. This ring thus lays outside of, and is separate to, the original ring and consumer unit.

    Whilst I am happy with the new arrangement (it means no trailing mains leads, so is much neater), I cannot say in all honesty it has made any difference to the sound quality of my system, nor would I expect it to. But it gives me peace of mind, and it allows my monoblock poweramps to be located directly behind each (electrostatic) speaker, which need two sockets each.

    Whilst the floorboards were up to fit the new ring, I ran in sets of balanced line interconnects from my preamp to the power amps, again removing any untidy trailing cables.
    Barry

  5. #205
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: South West of England

    Posts: 263
    I'm Will.

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    This is all amateur level, just wait until I try running a valve amp's HT directly from our solar array, conveniently around the right voltage
    Radford Revival
    www.radfordrevival.co.uk

  6. #206
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,861
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Radford Revival View Post
    This is all amateur level, just wait until I try running a valve amp's HT directly from our solar array, conveniently around the right voltage
    Hope the sun shines for you.
    Barry

  7. #207
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

    Default

    Here's an analogy which I hope will make things easier to understand for the non technical... and which I reckon shows very clearly why 90% of mains stuff is a myth..

    Here's a water analogy which holds pretty good. Imagine the voltage from a basic unregulated PSU is the water level in a tank and that there is a ball-cock controling the level. We could call this tank a reservoir even, hence the term "reservoir capacitor" sometimes being used instead of smoothing capacitor... The term "smoothing capacitor" also being very apt!

    As the equipment being powered draws current the water level drops. This causes the ball-cock to open a bit and let more water in from the mains. Now the "water" from the mains does not come in a steady flow! Oh no indeedy! The 50Hz AC is converted into pulses of 100Hz DC by the rectifier and when the mains tops up the reservoir it does it in the form of metaphorically throwing separate buckets in from a height, 100 times a second... turning the main stop-cock on and off 100 times a second would be an equally good analogy.

    If we could look carefully at the water level and plot it against time on a graph we would see it repetitively rising up pretty suddenly then falling much more slowly as the load draws current, only to be topped up suddenly again etc etc. (imagine the waters 10' deep representing 10V and the level goes up and down an inch or so). Now this ripple in the level is the ripple voltage (yes that's what it's called. Thats not an analogy but you can see why the water analogy is often used!) we see across the output of an unregulated PSU on a 'scope! The bigger the tank = the greater the size of the smoothing capacitor and hence the less ripple (it's smoother). Obviously without the smoothing capacitor our DC voltage would turn on and off 100 times a second!

    If the analogy has been understood then it shouldn't take much imagination to see that as the incoming mains enters in the form of "buckets thrown from a height" then it matters zilch how the buckets are thrown, from what precise height, with how much care etc etc.. so long as that reservoir is kept filled.
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  8. #208
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Hope the sun shines for you.
    Careful it doesn't end up sounding a bit bright
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  9. #209
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

    Default

    Talking of valve amps... it can be very instructive to look at above mentioned ripple voltage on the HT to the output stage of many valve amps! I've seen as much as 20V+ before! PSRR again In the form of the output transformer being fed HT at the centre tap and "outphasing" the ripple voltage in the secondary.
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  10. #210
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    Here's an analogy which I hope will make things easier to understand for the non technical... and which I reckon shows very clearly why 90% of mains stuff is a myth..

    Here's a water analogy which holds pretty good. Imagine the voltage from a basic unregulated PSU is the water level in a tank and that there is a ball-cock controling the level. We could call this tank a reservoir even, hence the term "reservoir capacitor" sometimes being used instead of smoothing capacitor... The term "smoothing capacitor" also being very apt!

    As the equipment being powered draws current the water level drops. This causes the ball-cock to open a bit and let more water in from the mains. Now the "water" from the mains does not come in a steady flow! Oh no indeedy! The 50Hz AC is converted into pulses of 100Hz DC by the rectifier and when the mains tops up the reservoir it does it in the form of metaphorically throwing separate buckets in from a height, 100 times a second... turning the main stop-cock on and off 100 times a second would be an equally good analogy.

    If we could look carefully at the water level and plot it against time on a graph we would see it repetitively rising up pretty suddenly then falling much more slowly as the load draws current, only to be topped up suddenly again etc etc. (imagine the waters 10' deep representing 10V and the level goes up and down an inch or so). Now this ripple in the level is the ripple voltage (yes that's what it's called. Thats not an analogy but you can see why the water analogy is often used!) we see across the output of an unregulated PSU on a 'scope! The bigger the tank = the greater the size of the smoothing capacitor and hence the less ripple (it's smoother). Obviously without the smoothing capacitor our DC voltage would turn on and off 100 times a second!

    If the analogy has been understood then it shouldn't take much imagination to see that as the incoming mains enters in the form of "buckets thrown from a height" then it matters zilch how the buckets are thrown, from what precise height, with how much care etc etc.. so long as that reservoir is kept filled.
    ...and yet, despite all that, if when you listen, your ears tell you differently, then the above (to us "non technical") matters not a jot!

    Marco [in tune with his God-given senses, more than his man-made science books].
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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