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Thread: Linear vs Switched mode PSU

  1. #311
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

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    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazjam View Post
    Jez knows his stuff for sure, and as he (rightly) has said before,,, power supply is important.
    The mains power supply is where your music comes from, dont compromise!
    IFthe processing after the PSU is good enough then no the mains power supply does not matter one jot. Remember it comes into the PSU as spikes of current in the first place!
    If you are not in a position to know how resilient against PSU issues your equipment is, and also not in a position to do anything to improve the situation by adding filtration etc (as I guess most lay person hi fi users will not be) then yes get a good PSU.

    If a SMPS is chosen at the design stage then suitable smoothing and filtration will be part of the design and it will work just as well as a linear supply
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  2. #312
    RothwellAudio Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitely Baffled View Post
    Great idea! Or what about this ... we could paint a door and all watch it dry.

    For heaven's sake, listen to the music not the power supply.
    IB
    I agree. Don't let an obsession with minutiae get in the way of enjoying the music.

  3. #313
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    Due to the above SMPS generate much more noise than a linear supply. However, it's at ultrasonic frequencies (above audibility unless you're a bat), whereas a linear supply generates noise at very audible frequencies.
    Just a thought but could this not be the reason why users swapping to linear supplies from SMPS report an improvement in sound quality? That is to say the introduction of noise in the audible bandwidth from the linear is generating a perceived improvement in sound quality?

    For example It has been postulated that so-called 'grounding boxes' by Entreq and others actually improve subjective sound quality by picking up RFI and introducing it into the signal path.

    Reducing noise and distortion may be the path to High Fidelity but higher noise and distortion can subjectively improve the listening experience. (c.f 'vinyl vs digital').
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  4. #314
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Warrington

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    I'm Neil.

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    What Jez isn't talking about is how ultrasonic frequencies can cause modulation effects (IMD), which can fold down into the audio band. I do believe his own gear would be immune to such things.

    Interesting related read here:

    https://www.resolutionmag.com/wp-con...lies-Part2.pdf
    Mana Acoustics Racks / Bright Star IsoNodes Decoupling >> Allo DigiOne Player >> Pedja Rogic's Audial Model S DAC + Pioneer PL-71 turntable / Vista Audio phono-1 mk II / Denon PCL-5 headshell / Reson Reca >> LFD DLS >> LFD PA2M (SE) >> Royd RR3s.

  5. #315
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Oxford

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    I'm Andy.

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    My experience is that high frequency noise affects digital equipment the most and is probably why there's been a revival in vinyl formats (not the only reason admittedly). I've heard too many digital systems with messed up treble (including my own for a while) for it to be coincidence, and the background noise of vinyl is much easier to live with. Now I've filtered it all properly my digital gear sounds much cleaner, sweeter and purer than my record player. As soon as I stick a poor SMPS (such as my router's wallwart) into the same power zone it all goes to pot.

    For a long time my iphone and other portable digital gear sounded vastly better than my big rig, just because it ran off batteries.

  6. #316
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

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    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Just a thought but could this not be the reason why users swapping to linear supplies from SMPS report an improvement in sound quality? That is to say the introduction of noise in the audible bandwidth from the linear is generating a perceived improvement in sound quality?

    For example It has been postulated that so-called 'grounding boxes' by Entreq and others actually improve subjective sound quality by picking up RFI and introducing it into the signal path.

    Reducing noise and distortion may be the path to High Fidelity but higher noise and distortion can subjectively improve the listening experience. (c.f 'vinyl vs digital').
    A voltage regulator after the raw supply removes all the 100Hz from the linear supply. It is far less good at removing the very high frequencies from a SMPS and these are much better dealt with by passive L-C-R filtering. Going a touch off topic here but high quality discrete "super regulators" can be orders of magnitude better than the cheap 78xx series and LM317 etc 3 pin regulators found in most equipment. The latter work great at mains frequencies but are falling off in performance by 1KHz or so (still very useful out to 10-30KHz) whereas the best super regulators will work fine to 100KHz+ and still give useful performance out to a MHz or so. They also have much lower noise etc. The penalty being cost... An LM317 can be about 20P but a good discrete regulator more like £50! The best discrete super regulators can offer lower noise, lower output impedance and better regulation than even a lorry battery!

    Probably in some cases there is a genuine improvement when going over to a linear regulated supply because the SMPS in use was a crap one and the circuitry being powered had poor PSRR. I'm sure that in many other examples it will be good old expectation bias though...

    To try and bring all this to some sort of conclusion, I am not a fan of SMPS but they can give results just as good as a linear PSU under the right conditions. For sensitive low level audio this means usually that the equipment is designed to use a SMPS and has suitable filtration, smoothing etc to render the HF noise irrelevant. Some applications such as computers, routers, hubs, and most digital applications will be fine with a SMPS as they are inherently pretty immune to the noise anyway. They also themselves generate noise of a similar nature to that from SMPS!

    Power amps can often give better results with a SMPS than with a linear PSU as in most cases, due to the high powers involved and the expense of building a regulator for such power levels, power amps tend to use unregulated PSU's and a linear one will have a volt or more of 100Hz mains interference and fairly poor regulation. A few power amps which do use proper linear regulated supplies are Naim NAP250 and similar models in the range, Quad 303 and a few Radford SS amps from late '60's early 70's such as the SPA50. The "worlds best power amps" Halcro power amps use SMPS!!

    It needs to be said also that SMPS vary hugely as to how good they are! The wallwart one I used for that buffer a short while measured as having only 3mV of noise. An excellent result! Some others may have 100mV. Caveat emptor... Take your oscilloscope along when buying one
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  7. #317
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

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    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrRadish View Post
    My experience is that high frequency noise affects digital equipment the most and is probably why there's been a revival in vinyl formats (not the only reason admittedly). I've heard too many digital systems with messed up treble (including my own for a while) for it to be coincidence, and the background noise of vinyl is much easier to live with. Now I've filtered it all properly my digital gear sounds much cleaner, sweeter and purer than my record player. As soon as I stick a poor SMPS (such as my router's wallwart) into the same power zone it all goes to pot.

    For a long time my iphone and other portable digital gear sounded vastly better than my big rig, just because it ran off batteries.
    My advice is the exact opposite of everything said above. Remember all PC's are powered by a hefty but cheaply made SMPS anyway! Also digital electronics produce just about as much noise as a SMPS does! Digital electronics have huge "noise immunity" by virtue of it working as 1's or 0's. The greater the voltage difference between a 1 and a 0 the greater the noise immunity. Typically the noise immunity will be around 2V or so meaning an interference "spike" or random noise/whatever would need to be 2V or greater for a false 1 to be caused where a 0 should be.
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  8. #318
    Join Date: Dec 2014

    Location: Surrey, UK

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    I'm Phil.

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    Has this thread changed anyone's opinion? It reads exactly the same as every 'do cables make a difference' and 'are all DACs the same' thread I have ever read and it all seems an it pointless to me

  9. #319
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarginWalker View Post
    Has this thread changed anyone's opinion? It reads exactly the same as every 'do cables make a difference' and 'are all DACs the same' thread I have ever read and it all seems an it pointless to me
    I don't think it is a question of opinion. What I took away was that SMPS are fine, even superior in some situations, 'linear' better in others, it's complicated and it depends on other, external factors. I didn't know that before. Plus good power supply rejection and regulation is important for sound quality. Which I did know before but not in a technical way.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  10. #320
    Join Date: Mar 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I don't think it is a question of opinion. What I took away was that SMPS are fine, even superior in some situations, 'linear' better in others, it's complicated and it depends on other, external factors. I didn't know that before. Plus good power supply rejection and regulation is important for sound quality. Which I did know before but not in a technical way.
    Same here, my takeaway is that both SMPS and LPSUs have their uses for different applications and probably does not make much difference for SQ, assuming high quality materials being used.

    But I'm still curious to try things out and as I have all the stuff for a high quality LPSU build will likely still go ahead. This probably means I will just do it myself - need to learn to solder though! Can't be that hard surely?
    Current: [P20] Roon/Tidal > Custom PC> Chevron Paradox NDF16 > Phast Pre > Neuro. 686 > Tannoy Berkley (RFC tweaks)


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