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Thread: Sign of the times we live in?

  1. #31
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

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    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Erm, Jez, that's not quite true. You're perfectly free to "tell the truth" about mains cables and fuses, and outline the facts as you see them, for others to *consider*. What you're not allowed to do (as indeed no-one is) is to dismiss someone else's 'truth' as bollocks, simply because it doesn't fit with yours.

    There is a difference!

    On AoS, it's all about showing tolerance and respect for other people's opinions and experiences, even if they're contrary to what you consider as 'correct' - and if you can't do that and become frustrated and angry, then you simply ignore the person expressing the 'offending' opinions, in order not to become embroiled in a pointless circular argument. It's that simple.

    What you don't do is browbeat them into believing what you believe, no matter how right you think you are. That's what you were doing before and have been asked to stop, which is why you were also asked not to contribute to certain subjective discussions, as you weren't able to control yourself from sometimes being downright rude.

    Quite simply, you say what you have to say, but *ultimately* let people believe what they want to believe.

    For us to allow otherwise, as you know full well, simply causes all sorts of aggro, because again as you also know, you'll *never* change someone's ingrained opinions on a forum, and it's not you who has to manage the fallouts and all the pish caused by these sorts of arguments!

    Marco.
    LOL... All of which you know well I couldn't disagree with more strongly!! There is no such thing to me as "someone's truth"!!! It's either true or not true no matter how strongly someone "believes" in it!! Someone may believe the earth is flat so strongly that they would kill to defend "their truth" but the earth would remain round and they would remain 100% wrong.

    Don't worry..... I'm not about to start joining subjectivist fuse threads and with religious zeal begin knocking down their arguments by any means possible as I once did Anything for a quiet life

  2. #32
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,643
    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebottle View Post
    The problem as I see it with scenarios like this, with items that the general listening public can change themselves like fuses, interconnects or mains leads, is that a physical contact is always involved.

    Who can say what change in contact resistance or cleaning effect is encountered just through the change of said item?

    After making and re-making the contact a few times such issues are gone... anyway it's probably best to avoid taking this discussion on the nature of the debate into the territory of the debate itself....

  3. #33
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 18,137
    I'm Martin.

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    It is a question of epistemology.

    You might think there is a police car outside your house because you can see the blue flashing light through your window. But the light is not actually on a police car but a breakdown truck. However there actually is a police car outside your house, but it doesn't have its light on. So are you right to believe there is a police car outside or not?

    Likewise if you hear that your system sounds better through making a tweak that has no basis in physics, are you right or wrong to believe it is better? No matter, it still sounds better just like there is actually a police car outside even though your entire evidential basis for believing that it is there is false.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Sony X505ES CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / NVA A30 Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *



    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S Thompson

  4. #34
    Join Date: Nov 2008

    Location: Rossendale

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    I'm AMusicFanNotAnAudiophile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    It is a question of epistemology.

    You might think there is a police car outside your house because you can see the blue flashing light through your window. But the light is not actually on a police car but a breakdown truck. However there actually is a police car outside your house, but it doesn't have its light on. So are you right to believe there is a police car outside or not?

    Likewise if you hear that your system sounds better through making a tweak that has no basis in physics, are you right or wrong to believe it is better? No matter, it still sounds better just like there is actually a police car outside even though your entire evidential basis for believing that it is there is false.
    Blues are for emergency services only, so a breakdown truck will not be using them. Ambers yes, blues no.
    Chris

    If I ask you what something means it's because I'm unable to understand whatever it is you're not managing to put into words very well.
    I have given up on guessing.
    If you don't like it then that's just tough shit!

    Once we've made sense of our world, we wanna go fuck up everybody else's because his or her truth doesn't match mine. But this is the problem. Truth is individual calculation. Which means because we all have different perspectives, there isn't one singular truth, is there?

  5. #35
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

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    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    It is a question of epistemology.

    You might think there is a police car outside your house because you can see the blue flashing light through your window. But the light is not actually on a police car but a breakdown truck. However there actually is a police car outside your house, but it doesn't have its light on. So are you right to believe there is a police car outside or not?

    Likewise if you hear that your system sounds better through making a tweak that has no basis in physics, are you right or wrong to believe it is better? No matter, it still sounds better just like there is actually a police car outside even though your entire evidential basis for believing that it is there is false.
    An interesting take on it but your epistemological view point is rather sesquipedalian and ultimately verging on floccinaucinihilipilification

  6. #36
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

    Posts: 29,533
    I'm Geoff.

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    I see somebody has been raking through the agglutinatives.
    Mr. Tact!

    Main system: MMs/ADCs/Low output MC's/One rare Japanese SUT/One scarce British phono stage/various tonearms/hefty Japanese DD TT and hefty Japanese BD TT and small British BD TT. 4 CD players/2 jitter buster/2 DACs/Valve buffer. TVC stepped attenuator or valve pre-amp or solid state pre-amp. Current dumping power-amp or either of two Class A SS power-amp or Class A EL34 valve monos or big Japanese (part Class A) integrated. Big dual concentric speakers/Smaller dual concentric speakers/Two way British compacts and full range speakers, amongst others. And too much more to list!

  7. #37
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 18,137
    I'm Martin.

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    Bastards.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Sony X505ES CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / NVA A30 Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *



    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S Thompson

  8. #38
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 73,367
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    LOL... All of which you know well I couldn't disagree with more strongly!!
    Well that's fine, disagree as strongly as you like, as long as you ultimately comply with the rules

    The point is, when you sign up to the view that science/physics can't currently prove all that we can *genuinely* hear in audio [count me in], then the 'truth' that you claim is definitive, to others and me isn't, and so therefore acts only as your 'truth', not ours!

    And you can disagree with that too, as strongly as you like, but it will not change my mind one iota, and of course neither will you change yours, so it's a stalemate and simply not worth getting into a pointless circular argument about, which is why it's best not to go there in the first place!!

    Marco.
    http://www.thestainedglasscompany.com

    "A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do" -- Milan Kundera.

  9. #39
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Newcastle UK

    Posts: 3,630
    I'm Rich.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    LOL... All of which you know well I couldn't disagree with more strongly!! There is no such thing to me as "someone's truth"!!! It's either true or not true no matter how strongly someone "believes" in it!! Someone may believe the earth is flat so strongly that they would kill to defend "their truth" but the earth would remain round and they would remain 100% wrong.

    Don't worry..... I'm not about to start joining subjectivist fuse threads and with religious zeal begin knocking down their arguments by any means possible as I once did Anything for a quiet life
    Jez, at the risk of having you repeat yourself and your contributions to other threads, I'd personally love to see a dedicated 'world according to Jez' thread here where you can properly set out your stall on these things and then people can either take it or leave it. If you've already tried that and I've missed it then I'll happily be directed to that thread.
    One of these days... I'm going to cut you into little pieces.

  10. #40
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,643
    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichB View Post
    Jez, at the risk of having you repeat yourself and your contributions to other threads, I'd personally love to see a dedicated 'world according to Jez' thread here where you can properly set out your stall on these things and then people can either take it or leave it. If you've already tried that and I've missed it then I'll happily be directed to that thread.
    The "world according to Jez" is the world both found in and bounded by almost all electronic text books and the laws of physics. The same world which would be instantly recognisably true to Peter Walker, Harold Leak, Peter Baxandall, Arthur Radford et al.... It is one where the impossible never happens and the improbable is investigated...

    I will say that if we could personify the "generic average keen audiophile" then at least 80% of what they believe to be technically true is completely wrong... People read articles in hi fi mags by non technical journalists etc which are incorrect or only partially correct, these spread like Chinese whispers on forums such as this and then from forum to forum, becoming more and more bizarre and incorrect with time, until something very definitely 100% wrong is believed to be "the accepted truth" by yer generic audiophile.... I'd love to debunk all such myths but I won't bother as I won't be able to contain my anger when some knob who doesn't know a capacitor from a screwdriver starts telling me I'm wrong cos he read it on "The Wam" or wherever.... I then start telling em they don't know their arse from their elbow and Marco gets all baity about it cos whilst I'm not saying he wants untruths to be propagated, he'd prefer falsehood to go unchallenged rather than risk anyone being offended by having their incorrect ideas publicly shot down in flames.... and as he says he ends up dealing with the fall out.... So I won't

    I will say (if I may be indulged for a moment Marco) that electronics is not particularly intuitive and so whilst the idea of square wheels is obviously ridiculous it is not so obvious why the idea of fuses effecting the sound is equally ridiculous unless one has fairly extensive knowledge of electronics... To me, with a life time of electronic engineering experience and knowledge, it is as laughable to suggest that a fuse could effect sound as it is both to me and anyone reading this to suggest that square wheels are a good idea... BUT, yes I can see why non technical types may question whether a fuse could indeed effect the sound.. after all the electrickery has to pass through it.. and aren't fuses a deliberate "weak link"? etc etc

    I hope the above is taken as inoffensively as intended but Marco, if you perceive it as "Jez doing it again" then feel free to delete it!

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