Massive Fire in London

[Macca]

you don't even understand what my 'politics' are.

total waste of my time

[Marco]

Same here. I find his politics so offensive I am not having much further to do with him.

I won't fall out with Martin about it, as I consider him a friend, but at the same time he needs to understand that he's grossly underestimating the level of feeling and anger you and I have, and others like us, towards what happened in London [the shamefully negligent reasons for that fire occurring in the first place], and especially how woefully the aftermath has been handled since by the government, even though we haven't been directly involved ourselves.

You don't have to directly involved in a tragedy to genuinely care, or most importantly, staunchly defend your principles!

Marco.

[Marco]

you don't even understand what my 'politics' are.

With respect, Martin, judging solely by what you've written here on this subject, especially your comments earlier about things being "forgotten", it seems pretty obvious where you stand, and if not, then you're not explaining yourself very well.

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

I won't fall out with Martin about it, as I consider him a friend, but at the same time he needs to understand that he's grossly underestimating the level of feeling and anger you and I have, and others like us, towards what happened in London [the grossly negligent reasons for that fire occurring in the first place], and especially how woefully the aftermath has been handled since by the government, even though we haven't been directly involved ourselves.

You don't have to directly involved in a tragedy to genuinely care, or most importantly, defend your principles!

Marco.

Not just the Grenfell Tower tragedy either.... The lack of empathy, sympathy, the cold callousness of putting profit, property and "the market" before human life (and then glibly saying 'it's just the way things are/the way of the world"), the blame apportioning on the unemployed, disabled etc that somehow it's "their fault" and they "don't deserve" help, (even after apparently having been there himself! turkeys, xmas) views on immigrants, brexit... and then admitting voting ukip... I'm getting more and more of an image of Thatcher/Farage/EDL/Britain First... Marie Antoinette calling "let them eat cake" even etc etc by the post and this is just the sort of stuff I would go to any lengths to destroy, to fight against (literally if it comes to it), to lobby against, to write to MP's in opposition of etc.

I've always considered Martin one of the more interesting posters on hi fi and music but his political opinions I find so offensive that he couldn't make it worse if he called for the legalisation of child slavery! (something he'd probably want to see a profit/loss projection on before backing it!)

[struth]

No personal insults please. Thats ooo

[Macca]

I will try one last time because I like you both and have no wish to fall out but you are assuming that I am posting some sort of polemic, perhaps because that is what you do. I am not. I post a commentary because I am a cynic/realist and therefore do not have 'politics' as such. 'Believing' in a particular ideology or putting my faith in an individual to 'lead us' I regard as the triumph of hope over experience. It doesn't work. It never works.

Take this for example:

the blame apportioning on the unemployed, disabled etc that somehow it's "their fault" and they "don't deserve" help, (even after apparently having been there himself! turkeys, xmas) views on immigrants, brexit... and then admitting voting ukip...

you already took me to task re the unemployment comments, despite the meaning of my original post being clear, and I explained it to you, which you then acknowledged. Now you bring it up again in the same old '2 legs bad 4 legs good' manner. It may be as simple as that to you but it isn't to me. Furthermore I refuse to be categorised as 'with you or against you'. I am neither and refuse to be pigeonholed either way.

'Admitting' voting UKIP... you see this is what I hate. Should I really be intimidated by the fact that this will make some people feel 'angry' or 'upset' into lying or keeping quiet? Or voting some other way? That's fascism, gentlemen, however you look at it. 'Join the Nazis or we'll burn your house down.'

Well screw that, it doesn't work on me. It even works against your own cause. You think that because you have intimidated someone into not expressing their views that you have changed their views? Not the same thing. They are in fact more likely to hold those views more strongly because of it. They just won't tell you about it anymore.

For the record and not because I feel that I need to explain myself, I voted UKIP recently and for Brexit last year, because it is my opinion that it is not a good outcome for the people of this country for it to be further subsumed into a European Superstate.

Consequently the legal ties that make this an inevitability need to be broken. We can carry on with the free trade area, the free movement of labour, paying them danegeld, and so on, as far as I am concerned. My opinion on this issue is based on a lifelong study of History, Politics and Economics and has been considered in depth and over many years.

I am not going to write the undergraduate thesis that would be required to explain in full so you will just have to settle for that. If you still think that makes me a 'Britain First' or 'EDL' member, then fine, we can leave it there and you can carry on with Animal Farm but frankly I really don't see the point in discussing politics with people who think it is just a dialectic argument, because then there is nothing to discuss.

[Macca]

I think you'll find 90% of people not directly affected have forgotten about it already and the other 10% soon will. It is the nature of things.
.

Now who here read that as 'I have forgotten about it' other than Marco and Jez? Hands up!

[Marco]

The lack of empathy, sympathy, the cold callousness of putting profit, property and "the market" before human life (and then glibly saying 'it's just the way things are/the way of the world")

The latter (in bold), whilst undoubtedly true, doesn't mean that folk should just 'sit back and take it'. And it boils my piss, like you wouldn't believe, when indeed some folk think they should just 'suck it up', as that's the way things will always be. Well no, PEOPLE POWER *can* (and indeed DOES) FORCE CHANGE!

In my book, the current unfairness, inequality and injustice, prevalent in our society, is loathsome, and deserves to be pointed at and fought against, via any reasonable means. I've never been one for simply meekly 'putting up with' anything that I consider is fundamentally wrong!

That's why I support ACTIVE PROTESTS and demonstrations by ordinary people, fighting for those very things (core human values), whilst rebelling against oppression, because that's what they should be doing, to try and force change. No-one should simply sit back and continually be shat upon from a great height, just because 'it's the way of the world'. Fuck that!

We need to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, by FIGHTING IT TOGETHER, and STANDING UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT!

And if peaceful protests fail, then regretfully I'm afraid that other more militant courses of action may be necessary, in order to force governments to sit up and take notice that people are very angry and no longer willing to tolerate being treated like shit, and allow governments and the establishment to continually run roughshod over them, whilst the wealthy are handsomely rewarded at their expense.

Ismail (or Ishmael, however his name is spelled), in his impassioned speech on YouTube earlier, talked of there being a "people's revolution", if things don't improve - and SOON. Let's remember that such revolutions have in the past successfully overthrown governments, so perhaps that's what's needed to address the currently unsustainable levels of injustice and inequality in our society?

If so, I'd be all for it. Fat cats can't rule the world forever.

Marco.

[Marco]

Now who here read that as 'I have forgotten about it' other than Marco and Jez? Hands up!

So why highlight that 'statistic', if it doesn't reflect your own opinion?

Who are these 90% of people you're referring to? Have you interviewed a significant cross-section of the UK population, in order assess their feelings and arrive at that statistic? If not, what factual/real world criteria is it based upon...?

And if you've done none of that, then your quoted 'statistic' is meaningless, and so serves no useful purpose.

The problem, Martin, is that you surmise too much, have the tendency to portray your opinion as fact, and often put your point across rather vaguely, whilst simultaneously expecting others to easily grasp it. Therefore, what might appear as clear to you, often isn't to others.

In short, what you write doesn't always reflect what you claim to think.

Marco.

[Macca]

Found my post about the unemployed on the other thread:

What you will find if you talk to people who do hard, boring jobs for little money, is that they are dead against giving alchys and druggies money, dead against dole scroungers, dead against unlimited immigration. It isn't the rich who are bothered about these things, it is typical Labour voters, people who work full-time for minimum (or close to it) wages.

Now who read that as 'I am dead against giving alchys and druggies money, dead against dole scroungers, dead against unlimited immigration' other than Jez and Marco?

Am I posting in tongues or something? It looks like perfect English to me.