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Thread: TAKET BATPURE Supertweeter - Mini Project

  1. #21
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 6,722
    I'm AnDreW.

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    Well all the old traits have come back again. Mainly

    1. Slightly more shimmer to brush work on some of my Jazz records.
    2. Piano's seem to have a little more solidity.
    3. Bass seems a little deeper and extended.
    4. A little more realism.

    Just having a quick listen now as I type this. I'll have to do more listening tests to see if the silver re-wire has been an improvement. I would have to say the soundstage seems a tad more coherent maybe a smidge more holographic. More on my next post.
    SS CD Teac VRDS25X(Mega Modded) DAC Caiman SEG+Anker PSU DECK 1210 Mat Analouge Studio Crystal Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony arm Board Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/Jaeger(low-impedance) connector/3 StageRegs/Recapped PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MCOrtofon Cadenza Black CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    Valve PRECroft Epoch(Mega Modded) AMP Sondex S100 SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Reference XO DECK Garrard301 MatTeunto GunMetal Bearing SPH PlinthMoldovan Arm SME 3012(Ikeda Ag wired) PSUPheonix PSU+Tachomter MCAg Meister SPU/DECCA Maroon CABLESArm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ Speaker3mm2Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostage4Box Paradise


  2. #22
    Join Date: May 2011

    Location: Glasgow

    Posts: 6,281
    I'm Brian.

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    Yup I concur with your findings here Andy . It will be interesting to see what difference the silver wire makes .
    Regards
    Brian

    Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment . (Rumi )


    Korus Computer Audio music server .
    DAC 3 French DAC
    Amplifier : Rega Brio R
    Speakers : Tannoy 637
    Interconnects : MS Audio / Klotz MC5000 .
    Speaker cables : Chord Epic Twin

  3. #23
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 6,722
    I'm AnDreW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian2957 View Post
    Yup I concur with your findings here Andy . It will be interesting to see what difference the silver wire makes .
    I've always liked silver and I'm a firm believer it add micro detail to the soundstage.
    SS CD Teac VRDS25X(Mega Modded) DAC Caiman SEG+Anker PSU DECK 1210 Mat Analouge Studio Crystal Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony arm Board Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/Jaeger(low-impedance) connector/3 StageRegs/Recapped PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MCOrtofon Cadenza Black CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    Valve PRECroft Epoch(Mega Modded) AMP Sondex S100 SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Reference XO DECK Garrard301 MatTeunto GunMetal Bearing SPH PlinthMoldovan Arm SME 3012(Ikeda Ag wired) PSUPheonix PSU+Tachomter MCAg Meister SPU/DECCA Maroon CABLESArm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ Speaker3mm2Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostage4Box Paradise


  4. #24
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 1,988
    I'm Tom.

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    Well I bought all the bits for my project but right as I was about to assemble, Jake sold off his factory-made ones so I've nabbed those.

    Interesting ... can't hear a peep out of them when played solo, but the effect seems real enough - in a subtle but definite way, more engrossing and a heightened sense of space. No idea how you would explain it.

    I'm running them with a cheap Chinese gainclone to take the strain off the power amp.
    Speakers - 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys with custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Preamp - EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII with Ikeda IT345-CR1 and Ortofon 309 Limited tonearms; Cartridges: Miyajima Madake, Zero Mono 0.7 and Premium 1.0 retipped by Ana Mighty Sound with bamboo cantilever, Ortofon SPU Royal N and Shure M3D with Jico stylus; phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport.

    'Wer nicht liebt Wein, Weib und Gesang der ist ein Narr sein Leben lang.'

  5. #25
    Join Date: May 2011

    Location: Glasgow

    Posts: 6,281
    I'm Brian.

    Default

    Welcome to the Batpure club Tom
    Regards
    Brian

    Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment . (Rumi )


    Korus Computer Audio music server .
    DAC 3 French DAC
    Amplifier : Rega Brio R
    Speakers : Tannoy 637
    Interconnects : MS Audio / Klotz MC5000 .
    Speaker cables : Chord Epic Twin

  6. #26
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,647
    I'm Jez.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Well I bought all the bits for my project but right as I was about to assemble, Jake sold off his factory-made ones so I've nabbed those.

    Interesting ... can't hear a peep out of them when played solo, but the effect seems real enough - in a subtle but definite way, more engrossing and a heightened sense of space. No idea how you would explain it.

    I'm running them with a cheap Chinese gainclone to take the strain off the power amp.
    Well that was an hour or two of my time I'll not get back or get paid for.... just saying... in fact that's bad form IMO.

  7. #27
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 1,988
    I'm Tom.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    Well that was an hour or two of my time I'll not get back or get paid for.... just saying
    An hour or two to do what? You quoted me £300 to build something involving a chip and some autoformers - that's with me providing the chip (you sent me the link to buy it from China), the mains transformer and a ready built up case with switch, RCAs etc all done. On top of that you 'couldn't guarantee' whether it would do what I wanted it to do and there was no way anyway to measure what volume setting it should be running at.

    To put it politely Jez that didn't seem like the most enticing offer. I seriously thought about it but it was a lot of money to gamble on a custom build with no guarantees.

    My thinking was that it would be simpler for experimental purposes to get one all built up with a volume control for under £100 that would appear to do most of the same thing - then if the experiment worked I would get back to you to see if it could be improved on.

    TBH it was never clear to me what the autoformers were supposed to be adding in an active configuration like this one (maybe you can enlighten us?) I had raised the question of whether they would be appropriate in boosting the level of a signal from the main amp, that's when they came up.
    Speakers - 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys with custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Preamp - EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII with Ikeda IT345-CR1 and Ortofon 309 Limited tonearms; Cartridges: Miyajima Madake, Zero Mono 0.7 and Premium 1.0 retipped by Ana Mighty Sound with bamboo cantilever, Ortofon SPU Royal N and Shure M3D with Jico stylus; phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport.

    'Wer nicht liebt Wein, Weib und Gesang der ist ein Narr sein Leben lang.'

  8. #28
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,647
    I'm Jez.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    An hour or two to do what? You quoted me £300 to build something involving a chip and some autoformers - that's with me providing the chip (you sent me the link to buy it from China), the mains transformer and a ready built up case with switch, RCAs etc all done. On top of that you 'couldn't guarantee' whether it would do what I wanted it to do and there was no way anyway to measure what volume setting it should be running at.

    To put it politely Jez that didn't seem like the most enticing offer. I seriously thought about it but it was a lot of money to gamble on a custom build with no guarantees.

    My thinking was that it would be simpler for experimental purposes to get one all built up with a volume control for under £100 that would appear to do most of the same thing - then if the experiment worked I would get back to you to see if it could be improved on.

    TBH it was never clear to me what the autoformers were supposed to be adding in an active configuration like this one (maybe you can enlighten us?) I had raised the question of whether they would be appropriate in boosting the level of a signal from the main amp, that's when they came up.
    You really are bang out of order mate.

    You contacted me asking for advice as to how best to go about driving these batpure super tweeters. I explained that it was not as simple as it may seem and outlined various issues and how best to tackle them and you then left me believing, after further emails and PM's, that you intended to commission me to carry out this work.

    One of the major points I put forward was that it was maybe less than optimal to put the capacitive reactive load on to your main amp as it could potentially spoil the audible range treble. I suggested a separate amp as it would also allow the volume to the batpures to be adjusted to fit in with the main speakers, and advised that a chip amp of a low power would be appropriate as it should easily handle the job and it should keep it cheap.

    You asked about a class D Tripath amp you already had and could you use that and I explained that it was not suitable due to it being class D. You then sent me photos of the class D amp you had already had made up by someone and asked me if I could re-use much of it in building you a new chip amp amp for the batpures. So I spent a while studying it, and said yes but the chip amp would need a lower voltage secondary transformer.
    I even, in good faith of the work coming my way, went on ebay and checked out Chinese made boards with LM3886 amp chips (which I had specifically recommended as most suitable), and found a specific board which seemed ideal for the task.

    This amp was to be used via step up auto transformers I was to design and build..(or so I was invited to believe)... There is I believe a version of the batpures, at a much higher price, with suitable transformers built in, these come back into the story later....

    Yes I went to great lengths to explain that to the best of my knowledge there were no published examples of previous DIY etc versions of what I was suggesting as the optimal solution and so, as I was having to do everything from scratch, and you cannot hear or reliably measure 30KHz + sound, whilst I would use best possible practice, precisely this solution has probably never been done before and so I couldn't guarantee 100% success. It would certainly have been infinitely better than any of the methods you were going to try without my advice and probably as good as the factory version.

    And on we go with me led to believe you were assembling all the bits such as the chip amp boards from China... and then, only 10 days ago or so, asking what transformer to order to go with the boards...() and expecting to hear that you've got the bits together to send me so I can build up the chip amp (a "gain clone") with the transformer I recommended, the boards I'd recommended and your old class d amp as a case donor... and then build the auto transformers to match....

    Next I hear about is today, this thread. Without further contact, not a thanks, not an "I've found a new solution sorry for the hassle"... you've used my idea of the separate amp with it's own gain control, the boards I recommended, even the transformer you asked about only 10 days ago, and obviously either managed to do the work yourself or get a mate to do it for you, and scored some second hand batpures with the built in transformer so no longer needing me to wind the transformers for you....

    All the emails answered and advice given in good faith. Time spent working out how best to do this job. Time spent searching on ebay amongst all the possible chip amp boards in order to suggest which to order.... and you even came back to me to ask mains transformer specs etc... Not even a PM or email of thanks or of "sorry I won't be going ahead with the work"

    Very shabby, to say the least.
    Last edited by Arkless Electronics; 28-06-2017 at 13:45.

  9. #29
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 1,988
    I'm Tom.

    Default

    Interesting perspective you have on this Jez.

    From my point of view - yous suggested on a thread that you could do something here. After several exchanges you quoted me £300 (plus some parts I was required to provide) for a solution that wasn't guaranteed to work. I suggested we might re-use a digital amp I own already to bring the cost down but was told the guts would have to come out anyway (so no reduction seemed forthcoming).

    My last communication with you on this was that I was unconvinced that I wanted to spend that amount of money on something with no guarantees but that I'd pick up the bits anyway (board and mains transformer you specified) and have a think.

    When I went online to buy the bits (chip amp board and mains transformer) I quickly discovered that I could get a fully built up unit for not a lot more. Add in the fact that going down your route I would also be cannibalising a perfectly good Tripath 2022 90w stereo amp that cost me £60 in the first place, and a new unit was a no-brainer.

    I don't see what's out of order here. Maybe if you'd been clearer how much of that £300 was building a gainclone and how much the rest of the solution we could have had a more productive discussion - as it was I came to the conclusion £300 was too rich for what I told you was a total experiement and what said at the outset I planned as a low-cost exercise.

    To quote you on what you said (your confidence level) - this more than anything was what gave me pause for thought:

    >
    As I intimated in a previous PM, there is no tried and tested way of
    doing this and this may well be a first, hence whilst you are assured
    of my full attention and best efforts in this, and whilst I'm pretty
    confident about it, as it can be regarded as quite experimental I
    would not be willing to offer any guarantee that this will do a superb
    job or you get your money back! I've never been asked to do this
    before and I would be amazed if you could find anyone who has! This is uncharted territory....
    >

    Not exactly compelling is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    You really are bang out of order mate.

    You contacted me asking for advice as to how best to go about driving these batpure super tweeters. I explained that it was not as simple as it may seem and outlined various issues and how best to tackle them and you then left me believing, after further emails and PM's, that you intended to commission me to carry out this work. One of the major points I put forward was that it was maybe less than optimal to put the capacitive reactive load on to your main amp as it could potentially spoil the audible range treble. I suggested a separate amp as it would also allow the volume to the batpures to be adjusted to fit in with the main speakers, and advised that a chip amp of a low power would be appropriate as it should easily handle the job and it should keep it cheap. You asked about a class D Tripath amp you already had and could you use that and I explained that it was not suitable due to it being class D. You then sent me photos of the class D amp you had already had made up by someone and asked me if I could re-use much of it in building you a new chip amp amp for the batpures. So I spent a while studying it, and said yes but the chip amp would need a lower voltage secondary transformer. I even, in good faith of the work coming my way, went on ebay and checked out Chinese made boards with LM3996 amp chips (which I had specifically recommended as most suitable), and found a specific board which seemed ideal for the task.

    This amp was to be used via step up auto transformers I was to design and build..(or so I was invited to believe)... There is I believe a version of the batpures, at a much higher price, with suitable transformers built in, these come back into the story later....

    Yes I went to great lengths to explain that to the best of my knowledge there were no published examples of previous DIY etc versions of what I was suggesting as the optimal solution and so, as I was having to do everything from scratch, and you cannot hear or reliably measure 30KHz + sound, whilst I would use best possible practice, precisely this solution has probably never been done before and so I couldn't guarantee 100% success. It would certainly have been infinitely better than any of the methods you were going to try without my advice and probably as good as the factory version.

    And on we go with me led to believe you were assembling all the bits such as the chip amp boards from China... and then, only 10 days ago or so, asking what transformer to order to go with the boards...() and expecting to hear that you've got the bits together to send me so I can build up the chip amp (a "gain clone") with the transformer I recommended and the boards I'd recommended and your old class d amp as a case donor... and then build the auto transformers to match....

    Next I hear about is today, this thread. Without further contact, not a thanks, not an "I've found a new solution sorry for the hassle"... you've used my idea of the separate amp with it's own gain control, the boards I recommended, even the transformer you asked about only 10 days ago, and obviously either managed to do the work yourself or get a mate to do it for you, and scored some second hand batpures with the built in transformer so no longer needing me to wind the transformers for you....

    All the emails answered and advice given in good faith. Time spent working out how best to do this job. Time spent searching on ebay amongst all the possible chip amp boards in order to suggest which to order, even coming back to ask mains transformer specs etc... Not even a PM or email of thanks or of "sorry I won't be going ahead with the work"

    Very shabby, to say the least.
    Speakers - 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys with custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Preamp - EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII with Ikeda IT345-CR1 and Ortofon 309 Limited tonearms; Cartridges: Miyajima Madake, Zero Mono 0.7 and Premium 1.0 retipped by Ana Mighty Sound with bamboo cantilever, Ortofon SPU Royal N and Shure M3D with Jico stylus; phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport.

    'Wer nicht liebt Wein, Weib und Gesang der ist ein Narr sein Leben lang.'

  10. #30
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,647
    I'm Jez.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Interesting perspective you have on this Jez.

    From my point of view - yous suggested on a thread that you could do something here. After several exchanges you quoted me £300 (plus some parts I was required to provide) for a solution that wasn't guaranteed to work. I suggested we might re-use a digital amp I own already to bring the cost down but was told the guts would have to come out anyway (so no reduction seemed forthcoming).

    My last communication with you on this was that I was unconvinced that I wanted to spend that amount of money on something with no guarantees but that I'd pick up the bits anyway (board and mains transformer you specified) and have a think.

    When I went online to buy the bits (chip amp board and mains transformer) I quickly discovered that I could get a fully built up unit for not a lot more. Add in the fact that going down your route I would also be cannibalising a perfectly good Tripath 2022 90w stereo amp that cost me £60 in the first place, and a new unit was a no-brainer.

    I don't see what's out of order here. Maybe if you'd been clearer how much of that £300 was building a gainclone and how much the rest of the solution we could have had a more productive discussion - as it was I came to the conclusion £300 was too rich for what I told you was a total experiement and what said at the outset I planned as a low-cost exercise.

    To quote you on what you said (your confidence level) - this more than anything was what gave me pause for thought:

    >
    As I intimated in a previous PM, there is no tried and tested way of
    doing this and this may well be a first, hence whilst you are assured
    of my full attention and best efforts in this, and whilst I'm pretty
    confident about it, as it can be regarded as quite experimental I
    would not be willing to offer any guarantee that this will do a superb
    job or you get your money back! I've never been asked to do this
    before and I would be amazed if you could find anyone who has! This is uncharted territory....
    >

    Not exactly compelling is it?
    I consider £300 to build up a gain clone from parts supplied by you, including having to first strip out an old amplifier to re-use the casework, sockets , speaker connectors etc and then to design build and supply one off auto transformers is VERY reasonable!

    This would have been very much an experimental project hence I could not give watertight guarantees. To the best of my knowledge you will not find any reference as to this having been already successfully done elsewhere on either the internet, any electronics mag, hi fi mag or text book. There is no "this is the accepted way to do it" to base it on. In spite of this I was willing to take on the job. Hence I had to put quite some thought into how best to do it.

    The salient points here are that you took my advice, my IP, and the best part of 2 hours of my time it took to work all this out and recommend specific amp boards etc, led me to believe I was to get the job of carrying out this work, and then used my ideas and advice to do the job yourself on the cheap and all without even a thanks, an acknowledgement, a PM to say you would not be going ahead or anything of the type. The closest hint I got that it even may not go ahead was this on 6/6/17

    "HI Jez
    Iíll pick up that board anyway and let you know what Iím doing after the Batpures arrive from Japan.
    Still a fair amount of cash to spend on a total experiment so I need to be sure in my head that I want to go down that route."


    Well you did go down "that route" using my ideas but on the cheap and doing it yourself...

    And then this on 11/6/17 "Hi Jez just getting round to ordering that board do you have a suggested mains transformer to get as well?"

    Whilst you expressed concern over the price and the experimental nature of this, the fact that you said you were going ahead and ordering the board, and then a week later asked for advice on the transformer to go with it, would I believe lead most reasonable people to concur that the job was to go ahead. I heard nothing further until reading this thread last night!

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