general election

[walpurgis]

Spain's problems are nothing to do with the EU - it's government stupidity and corruption.

A bit like here then...........................and America.................and the rest of the world!

[Arkless Electronics]

Doesn't that mean it isn't the Conservative party which is the problem, it's the electorate? How you would deal with that problem, I have no idea - stop people from voting if they don't vote the way you want them to?

If the nasty party didn't exist they wouldn't be able to vote for them! If they didn't have such evil policies they wouldn't be able to vote for this evil. After brexit and trump I would favour a benign dictatorship over democracy as the people are too thick and too selfish to make such big decisions (they would no doubt vote for the return of the death penalty. Which is why they must never be given the chance).
Unfortunately any dictatorship may turn non benign and power corrupts.....
Worst of all many people have been brainwashed by The Daily Mair etc which encourages hatred and division to the extent many of the idiots which make up half the electorate will probably vote to try and hurt whoever they don't like rather than to try to get a fair and friendly society in which everyone can thrive in equality. See brexit for best example of this... "maybe I'll lose my job but it will be the foreigners that will suffer first and suffer most so I'm voting leave"

There was a TW3 sketch with Cleese and the two Ronnies which many will have seen.. "I'm working class and I look up to him and him, but I'm upper class and I look down on both him and him" etc, Capitalism, the worlds greatest evil, is to blame not only for this but a much more pernicious and quite deliberate "divide and conquer" in which nowadays, people are not divided into upper middle and lower classes based on birth, but on many more layers based on wealth and greed...

"I shop in Waitrose and I'm better than her cos she shops in Tesco", "I shop at Tesco and I'm better than her cos she shops at Aldi" etc... everywhere you look you are being encouraged to judge others based on how wealthy they are, where they live, what car they drive.... and to many who are that shallow, country of birth, skin colour and religion will come into this in a big way.

Capitalism, through the media and advertising, is trying its best to tribalise us into all sorts of strata of "us and them" where the way we vote (if we're thick enough to be so brainwashed, which unfortunately over half the population are) is almost decided by where we live and what we've got in the bank...
A further twist in these dark days is some will even vote to try to harm those they see as below them... even as a priority above voting for their own best interests! It's not a new phenomena (see Orwells "The road to Wigan pier") but is becoming stronger and more pernicious by the year. The turkeys keep on voting for xmas... cos they hope they'll come for the chickens first...

Some of the worst examples are such as when one hears of a village of posh toffs , most of which have 3-4 cars and own a holiday home as well, trying to stop a hostel for the homeless being built half a mile away in case it lowers the value of their own home.... worse still, some may remember spikes being built into the pavement outside posh apartments in London to prevent the homeless from even having "the luxury" of bare concrete...

Corbyn is probably the best chance we've ever had to end this hegemony of the elite wealthy establishment which is behind all the above... Hence the media, owned by the very same rich establishment, are doing everything they can to ruin the chances of us getting a truly socialist Labour government for the first time since 1948. You know, the one that gave us the NHS and the welfare state

In this same vein I believe it's well overdue for legislation to be passed to prevent the BLATANT attempts (largely successful ones) of private, wealthy, newspaper proprietors and their shareholders to dictate who runs the country!!!
It's a fine line.. freedom of the press etc, but if you go into a newsagent today and look at the headlines most every one of them will have huge headlines virtually calling Corbyn Satan incarnate!

The conflict of interest is breathtakingly obvious here. It's multi billionaires like Murdoch and Dacre (and their equally wealthy and powerful chums and backers in industry and gov) who stand to have their tax loopholes closed and may lose their ocean going yachts to help pay for the NHS! It's about as fair and unbiased as a court case in which the judge and jury are the defendants family...

Great Britain, The best "democracy" money can buy!

[Macca]

The key was in the bit where I wrote: "if he had his way", which of course he hasn't yet, and let's hope he never does either.

He hasn't actually said what I've intimated (of course not, or he would've been lambasted for it), but it would take the most non-astute (or deliberately blind) person not to see that that's what he would like to happen.

Farage is fundamentally a racist, or at the very least, someone who displays very obvious racist tendencies.




Lol... Here we go again, shades of your (now infamous) 'there are no food banks' comment! OPEN YOUR EYES, FFS, Martin, and have look at the world around you, out with of your own back yard.

.

Last time you claimed I wrote that I offered £100 to the charity if your choice if you could reproduce the post. You couldn't
If you are going to debate with me don't put words in my mouth.

There is a hostel for the homeless not half a mile from my house. There is a halfway house for offenders released from prison about 200 feet from my house. 'My back yard' , as I already said, is the poorest area of the poorest city in England. Hardly ever see anyone begging, think the last time was about 3 month ago. Gave him 50p. And he wasn't homeless, just spinning a bad luck story about having lost his bus fare.

Some of these people have mental health issues and I would agree, since I know people who work in that field, that more needs to be done. But more has needed to be done for 30 years, under Labour or Tory. It isn't as simple as just throwing money at the problem. Why people think that is the answer to everything I have no idea.

Some of them are drug addicts or alcoholics. Again this is a problem that should be dealt with. Again it is more complex than money.

What you will find if you talk to people who do hard, boring jobs for little money, is that they are dead against giving alchys and druggies money, dead against dole scroungers, dead against unlimited immigration. It isn't the rich who are bothered about these things, it is typical Labour voters, people who work full-time for minimum (or close to it) wages.

You accuse me of defending the 'money men' whoever they are. I already made it clear in my previous post that I am not defending anyone. I'm as keen to resolve social problems as much as you are, we simply disagree about the best way to go about it. More than that, you think Corbyn is the answer whilst I think he will only make things worse.

Now we can discuss that in more detail if you wish, since that is the point at which we actually disagree. But you have to realise I am absolutely not arguing from a partisan point of view but a realistic one. Being against Corbyn does not automatically make me for May, or Farage, or anyone else. My position is far more complex than that, and my opinion of anyone who thinks it is possible to take a simple black and white position is that they really ought to reconsider at length.

Now don't get me wrong, I admire people who have principles and conviction. Trouble is if you want to achieve your objectives in the real world those things are a liability, not an asset. There is system and you have to play it to get the outcomes you want.

This shit's chess not chequers. You want to tear the system down and build a new one? That is never going to happen and the more you waste your energy shouting for it the less you have to actually do something about it. And I'm not talking about changing the system from within either. I'm taking about gaming the existing system. It is what rich people do to get richer, after all, so why can the same tactics not be employed to help solve the problems you highlighted?

[Marco]

Some very salient points here, Jez:

Worst of all many people have been brainwashed by The Daily Mair etc which encourages hatred and division to the extent many of the idiots which make up half the electorate will probably vote to try and hurt whoever they don't like rather than to try to get a fair and friendly society in which everyone can thrive in equality. See brexit for best example of this... "maybe I'll lose my job but it will be the foreigners that will suffer first and suffer most so I'm voting leave"

I would agree. Rather bizarrely too, it's some of the working classes who often display the most anti-socialist tendencies, almost as if they've forgotten their roots, or worse, turned into the types you've mentioned above!

"I shop in Waitrose and I'm better than her cos she shops in Tesco", "I shop at Tesco and I'm better than her cos she shops at Aldi" etc... everywhere you look you are being encouraged to judge others based on how wealthy they are, where they live, what car they drive.... and to many who are that shallow, country of birth, skin colour and religion will come into this in a big way.

Indeed - and I see evidence of that odious mentality everywhere. Thatcher was largely (but not solely) responsible for creating it.

A further twist in these dark days is some will even vote to try to harm those they see as below them... even as a priority above voting for their own best interests! It's not a new phenomena (see Orwells "The road to Wigan pier") but is becoming stronger and more pernicious by the year. The turkeys keep on voting for xmas... cos they hope they'll come for the chickens first...

Interesting... It certainly ties in with your previous point about Brexit.

Some of the worst examples are such as when one hears of a village of posh toffs , most of which have 3-4 cars and own a holiday home as well, trying to stop a hostel for the homeless being built half a mile away in case it lowers the value of their own home.... worse still, some may remember spikes being built into the pavement outside posh apartments in London to prevent the homeless from even having "the luxury" of bare concrete...

Yes I've heard of that too, and it beggars belief, especially the latter, which is quite simply blatant cruelty, and ably displays the complete absence of decent human thinking, such a 'greed for gold' breeds.

And that 'greed for gold' has been instilled in the minds of many of the current electorate, due to being force-fed a capitalist 'me first' agenda for years - and not just by the Tories either...

Corbyn is probably the best chance we've ever had to end this hegemony of the elite wealthy establishment which is behind all the above... Hence the media, owned by the very same rich establishment, are doing everything they can to ruin the chances of us getting a truly socialist Labour government for the first time since 1948. You know, the one that gave us the NHS and the welfare state

Hear, hear, which is one of the main reasons why I've voted Labour for the first time ever.

It's a fine line.. freedom of the press etc, but if you go into a newsagent today and look at the headlines most every one of them will have huge headlines virtually calling Corbyn Satan incarnate!

Yes, because they're all owned by Murdoch (one of the key members of the elite), who therefore indirectly drives the political agenda, for the benefit of him and others like him. It's truly amazing that some folks can't see that!

The conflict of interest is breathtakingly obvious here. It's multi billionaires like Murdoch and Dacre (and their equally wealthy and powerful chums and backers in industry and gov) who stand to have their tax loopholes closed and may lose their ocean going yachts to help pay for the NHS!

Ain't that the truth! If it were up to me, I'd "close" more than their bloody tax loopholes....

Marco.

[Macca]

...

"I shop in Waitrose and I'm better than her cos she shops in Tesco", "I shop at Tesco and I'm better than her cos she shops at Aldi" etc... everywhere you look you are being encouraged to judge others based on how wealthy they are, where they live, what car they drive.... and to many who are that shallow, country of birth, skin colour and religion will come into this in a big way.

!

Do you actually know anyone like this Jez? I'm not saying they don't exist just that I never come across them and I wonder how you know them. I did once have a bunch of old grannies take the piss out of me at the till in Kwik Save because I was buying Lurpak butter, which they quite vocally let me know they considered a reckless extravagance. But I'm not sure that is the same thing.

[Arkless Electronics]

Do you actually know anyone like this Jez? I'm not saying they don't exist just that I never come across them and I wonder how you know them. I did once have a bunch of old grannies take the piss out of me at the till in Kwik Save because I was buying Lurpak butter, which they quite vocally let me know they considered a reckless extravagance. But I'm not sure that is the same thing.

I've met many yes and amongst the shallower and more intellectually challenged I would guess 60% plus are like this. Why do you think many women will save Harrod's carrier bags etc?

I've even heard people (again usually women when it comes to "supermarket politics") put on their best "telephone voice" to say "oh no I would never shop at Aldi's , eee the types one has to mix with"....

[Macca]

I've met many yes and amongst the shallower and more intellectually challenged I would guess 60% plus are like this. Why do you think many women will save Harrod's carrier bags etc?

I've even heard people (again usually women when it comes to "supermarket politics") put on their best "telephone voice" to say "oh no I would never shop at Aldi's , eee the types one has to mix with"....

Yes, 'Harrod's carrier bag syndrome' is one I've observed. Agree it is a bit shallow, but I'd argue we will always have shallow people even if we could make everyone rich tomorrow.

Thing is people will compete with each other in any way they can. The carrier bag thing is very much female. Now we all accept that men are competitive amongst themselves but forget that women are too. A women dolls herself up for a night out, that isn't to impress men, that's to impress other women. I'd argue that is inherent in the species. Not the shallowness but the urge to compete. And the latter creates the former.

[Arkless Electronics]

Last time you claimed I wrote that I offered £100 to the charity if your choice if you could reproduce the post. You couldn't
If you are going to debate with me don't put words in my mouth.

There is a hostel for the homeless not half a mile from my house. There is a halfway house for offenders released from prison about 200 feet from my house. 'My back yard' , as I already said, is the poorest area of the poorest city in England. Hardly ever see anyone begging, think the last time was about 3 month ago. Gave him 50p. And he wasn't homeless, just spinning a bad luck story about having lost his bus fare.

Some of these people have mental health issues and I would agree, since I know people who work in that field, that more needs to be done. But more has needed to be done for 30 years, under Labour or Tory. It isn't as simple as just throwing money at the problem. Why people think that is the answer to everything I have no idea.

Some of them are drug addicts or alcoholics. Again this is a problem that should be dealt with. Again it is more complex than money.

What you will find if you talk to people who do hard, boring jobs for little money, is that they are dead against giving alchys and druggies money, dead against dole scroungers, dead against unlimited immigration. It isn't the rich who are bothered about these things, it is typical Labour voters, people who work full-time for minimum (or close to it) wages.

You accuse me of defending the 'money men' whoever they are. I already made it clear in my previous post that I am not defending anyone. I'm as keen to resolve social problems as much as you are, we simply disagree about the best way to go about it. More than that, you think Corbyn is the answer whilst I think he will only make things worse.

Now we can discuss that in more detail if you wish, since that is the point at which we actually disagree. But you have to realise I am absolutely not arguing from a partisan point of view but a realistic one. Being against Corbyn does not automatically make me for May, or Farage, or anyone else. My position is far more complex than that, and my opinion of anyone who thinks it is possible to take a simple black and white position is that they really ought to reconsider at length.

Now don't get me wrong, I admire people who have principles and conviction. Trouble is if you want to achieve your objectives in the real world those things are a liability, not an asset. There is system and you have to play it to get the outcomes you want.

This shit's chess not chequers. You want to tear the system down and build a new one? That is never going to happen and the more you waste your energy shouting for it the less you have to actually do something about it. And I'm not talking about changing the system from within either. I'm taking about gaming the existing system. It is what rich people do to get richer, after all, so why can the same tactics not be employed to help solve the problems you highlighted?

I read here a paean of praise and subjugation to your "betters" whilst waving a white flag and handing them the vaseline...

"What you will find if you talk to people who do hard, boring jobs for little money, is that they are dead against giving alchys and druggies money, dead against dole scroungers, dead against unlimited immigration. It isn't the rich who are bothered about these things, it is typical Labour voters, people who work full-time for minimum (or close to it) wages."
Whilst I'm disgusted to see the word "scrounger" after "dole" (I can't really expect any better from a Tory) this is exactly the sort of thing I'm on about in my equally long rant... People thinking that if they're not doing particularly well then they want to see someone else, the "them" rather than the "us", do even worse! Shameful.

[Marco]

Thing is people will compete with each other in any way they can.

Lol - you say that almost as if it's a given!

Only certain types are prone to such (frankly risible) behaviour, whilst those of us with sufficiently high self-esteem and confidence in ourselves don't feel the need to compete with or 'impress' anyone, least of all over shallow, materialistic shite such as Jez mentioned

Now we all accept that men are competitive amongst themselves but forget that women are too. A women dolls herself up for a night out, that isn't to impress men, that's to impress other women. I'd argue that is inherent in the species. Not the shallowness but the urge to compete. And the latter creates the former.

Double LOL... Thank fuck then I married one who quite clearly missed the necessary 'chip insertion', when such a species was created!

I'll get to your previous (long) post later.

Marco.

[Marco]

I've met many yes and amongst the shallower and more intellectually challenged I would guess 60% plus are like this. Why do you think many women will save Harrod's carrier bags etc?

Indeed, and it doesn't simply manifest itself in 'carrier-bag syndrome' either. That risibly shallow, snooty/competitive attitude rears its ugly head in so many other ways, which is one of the reasons why we decided never again to live in a housing estate and have neighbours right next door!!

I've even heard people (again usually women when it comes to "supermarket politics") put on their best "telephone voice" to say "oh no I would never shop at Aldi's , eee the types one has to mix with"....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... That's fucking hilarious!! It just shows you how fatally ignorant these snobby tossers are

The reality is they'd be mixing largely with the discerning middle-classes [count me in], who know the quality and value for money available with the some of the stock sold there (especially anything inherently German), and often also B&B or small restaurant owners, possessing the same knowledge, and because of the low price/high quality ratio of their purchases, are able to keep their customers happy, whilst making a good profit for their respective businesses.

One look at the cars parked outside your average Lidl or Aldi, ably demonstrates that fact. In Wrexham branch of Lidl recently, I had a nice chat in the car park with a chap who owned a restaurant and drove a Mercedes C63 AMG, and who was admiring the Brabster, whilst his wife was inside buying her favourite smoked salmon and Prosecco!

If you want chavs, you're more likely to find them in Asda or Tesco, not Aldi or Lidl!! Ignorant dickheads....

Marco.