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Thread: In search of SCALE, the ever amazing ESL57.

  1. #21
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: Notts

    Posts: 667
    I'm Geoff.

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    I'm often surprised by those who are surprised by the performance or electrostatic and ribbon speakers. By nature they are able to shift a of of air and can produce very good bass slam and reasonable extension. I am not a fan of sub-woofers as I have found that they smear the image and make a system sound slower. The problem with electrostatics and ribbon speakers is that they are often paired with inadequate amplification. My Magneplanars are now sounding superb since I got the amplification right and the soundstage is huge (even though I have them in a dedicated listening room - a double bedroom - that is smaller than ideal). Bass slam is excellent and the tonal balance ideal to my ears. Even without a sub! I have heard ESL57s sound fantastic when suitably powered.

    Geoff

  2. #22
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,643
    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Kipling View Post
    Have you ever tried adding the Neumann constant to a phono stage? I tried years ago, but can't remember what the result was.

    Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
    I mentioned it in a recent rant on phono stages but no I've never tried it and have zero intention of ever trying it. It very probably doesn't actually exist!

  3. #23
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 660
    I'm Russell.

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    Most of that sub bass rumble in vinyl playback is mechanical feedback. i.e. Coming through the floor and up the rack into the record player. Unless you play with your hinged lid standing open, air borne feedback is minuscule compared to what is shaking in the room. So a mechanical solution is a much better idea, in my opinion. As pointed out electronic solutions have their drawbacks. And there are many products on the market to address this very problem. Anything from granite slabs to rest your table on, to floating platforms that use magnetic levitation. Many of those over priced metal feet are designed to mute vibrations in the lower frequencies.

    I was looking at the "Cloud 9", I think it is? They make two part platforms with rubber balls between them, to isolate your table from vibrations in the low frequencies. And they make one that fits my Scout, designed for it. Anyway, engineers have addressed this low frequency problem with vinyl in many mechanical ways. I've always heard it was good to place your record player on an outside wall, because the floor has much more support near the foundation. And it's easy enough to experiment with homemade solutions. Presently I've got the metal cone feet seated in brass cups, and it did wonders to eliminate footfalls causing skips. And by the time I notice any bass funny business the volume is way too loud!


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  4. #24
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 16,465
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Kipling View Post
    Have you ever tried adding the Neumann constant to a phono stage? I tried years ago, but can't remember what the result was.

    Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
    Must have made a big difference then.
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

  5. #25
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,643
    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaGT View Post
    Most of that sub bass rumble in vinyl playback is mechanical feedback. i.e. Coming through the floor and up the rack into the record player. Unless you play with your hinged lid standing open, air borne feedback is minuscule compared to what is shaking in the room. So a mechanical solution is a much better idea, in my opinion. As pointed out electronic solutions have their drawbacks. And there are many products on the market to address this very problem. Anything from granite slabs to rest your table on, to floating platforms that use magnetic levitation. Many of those over priced metal feet are designed to mute vibrations in the lower frequencies.

    I was looking at the "Cloud 9", I think it is? They make two part platforms with rubber balls between them, to isolate your table from vibrations in the low frequencies. And they make one that fits my Scout, designed for it. Anyway, engineers have addressed this low frequency problem with vinyl in many mechanical ways. I've always heard it was good to place your record player on an outside wall, because the floor has much more support near the foundation. And it's easy enough to experiment with homemade solutions. Presently I've got the metal cone feet seated in brass cups, and it did wonders to eliminate footfalls causing skips. And by the time I notice any bass funny business the volume is way too loud!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I disagree. The often large excursions of the woofer cone, seen especially with ported speakers, are from undulations in the flatness of the vinyl, mini warps if you like, plus from visible warps. Remember, bass is boosted x 10 by the RIAA eq curve!

  6. #26
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 16,465
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    I disagree. The often large excursions of the woofer cone, seen especially with ported speakers, are from undulations in the flatness of the vinyl, mini warps if you like, plus from visible warps. Remember, bass is boosted x 10 by the RIAA eq curve!
    Such undulations will have a frequency of less than 1 Hz. Would any competently designed RIAA phonostage respond to that?
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

  7. #27
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 660
    I'm Russell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    I disagree. The often large excursions of the woofer cone, seen especially with ported speakers, are from undulations in the flatness of the vinyl, mini warps if you like, plus from visible warps. Remember, bass is boosted x 10 by the RIAA eq curve!
    All I know is that these mechanical isolation devices work. Mini warps may cause issues, but they would happen no matter the volume. As far as feedback, it increases with volume, both mechanical or airborne. There's not much to be done about airborne feedback, unless you mount your 'table in another room. So combating mechanical feedback leaves you two options, either install a filter in the preamp, or isolate it mechanically. You yourself claim that the side effects of electronic filters make them not a good option, so that leaves us with mechanical isolation.

    Low frequency exasperations due to mini warps can be damped at the stylus, or into the platter perhaps? But those things are built into the design of the 'table itself, or cartridge, or tonearm, part of what makes one turntable worth more than another. But that issue is not a feedback issue. And I can speak from personal experience that mechanical isolation devices can make a real difference.

    My old setup was so that I couldn't walk across the floor without footfalls causing skipping. And increasing the volume would excite the bass, getting boomier as it got louder. Now I've got a 35lb plinth with cone feet on brass cups, and those problems are greatly reduced. I can reach beyond satisfying volumes and the bass sounds solid and stable.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to minimize the problem of these mini warps, as you have eloquently described them. That is yet another problem with vinyl playback that can be addressed. I've been looking at some platter mats, the Achromatic, that are supposed to absorb these bass artifacts, or channel them into the platter.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  8. #28
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,643
    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Such undulations will have a frequency of less than 1 Hz. Would any competently designed RIAA phonostage respond to that?
    Quote Originally Posted by alphaGT View Post
    All I know is that these mechanical isolation devices work. Mini warps may cause issues, but they would happen no matter the volume. As far as feedback, it increases with volume, both mechanical or airborne. There's not much to be done about airborne feedback, unless you mount your 'table in another room. So combating mechanical feedback leaves you two options, either install a filter in the preamp, or isolate it mechanically. You yourself claim that the side effects of electronic filters make them not a good option, so that leaves us with mechanical isolation.

    Low frequency exasperations due to mini warps can be damped at the stylus, or into the platter perhaps? But those things are built into the design of the 'table itself, or cartridge, or tonearm, part of what makes one turntable worth more than another. But that issue is not a feedback issue. And I can speak from personal experience that mechanical isolation devices can make a real difference.

    My old setup was so that I couldn't walk across the floor without footfalls causing skipping. And increasing the volume would excite the bass, getting boomier as it got louder. Now I've got a 35lb plinth with cone feet on brass cups, and those problems are greatly reduced. I can reach beyond satisfying volumes and the bass sounds solid and stable.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to minimize the problem of these mini warps, as you have eloquently described them. That is yet another problem with vinyl playback that can be addressed. I've been looking at some platter mats, the Achromatic, that are supposed to absorb these bass artifacts, or channel them into the platter.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    The flapping woofer we're all familiar with happens IME with every TT I've had or known to the same extent.... Go figure.... Yes footfall excites similar but it's still there with wall mounted TT's and ones with amazing isolation...

    And not mainly at 1Hz! Put a record on and observe woofer

  9. #29
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Ryedale, North Yorkshire.

    Posts: 50
    I'm Justin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    I mentioned it in a recent rant on phono stages but no I've never tried it and have zero intention of ever trying it. It very probably doesn't actually exist!
    CEC PH53, Aqvox 2CI and BMC Audio MCCI Signature Phono stages have that option. All designed by Carlos Candeias.

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