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Thread: How good is better than CD?

  1. #21
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

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    I'm Ken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Copyright?
    I don't think there is much of an issue, like with software, if you have bought the item or licence then making a copy for security and longevity is accepted as the norm. As long as your not selling or giving away multiple copies or playing to a public audience and its just for your own use. Recording off the radio/internet or borrowed sources is a different thing as you haven't paid the artist/publisher for their efforts.
    Ken

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  2. #22
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwin View Post
    I don't think there is much of an issue, like with software, if you have bought the item or licence then making a copy for security and longevity is accepted as the norm. As long as your not selling or giving away multiple copies or playing to a public audience and its just for your own use. Recording off the radio/internet or borrowed sources is a different thing as you haven't paid the artist/publisher for their efforts.
    It is still technically illegal though. Anyway the question was why is no-one making needle drops off of a mint first pressing on a top end vinyl system and selling them? To which one of the answers is copyright. You would certainly be nicked at some point.
    Martin



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  3. #23
    Join Date: Jan 2013

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    Is it though.

    Most laws covering intellectual property rights, are about passing stuff off as your own or as original and doing the owner out of possible income. As you have already paid for unlimited personal use of the item it is arguable as to what if any law you have broken. Can't be bothered to wade through the law, so I am just using my experience on patent and design copyright where I have been involved in several cases.
    I once had to witness the destruction of some injection mould tools that infringed a patent. Signed a document along with a Court official to say the cutting up had taken place, the idiot had just directly copied our design, made no attempt to change a thing so wouldn't have passed on copyright either.

    The law can work in strange ways, is it the copying that is illegal, or the selling on etc. Don't know enough to be definitive.

    I was warned only last week in my local record shop to watch out for bad German Vinyl and CD's taken from needle drops, so it does happen, though more likely to be at a car boot level than a ligit music shop. The shop owner said he had several of these bad copies through the doors, apparently the guy had a vinyl press in his garage and spat out poor quality Vinyl and CD's. The labels and sleeves were well printed and difficult to spot as fake. I think he has been stopped now but stuff is still in circulation.

    Worst case is with China, who ignore Patent and Copyright law as a nation, so you can't stop it through the courts and only prosecute end retailers over here for selling fake goods, which doesn't effect the people producing it. When I worked at Siemens a group of employees at a Chinese factory took a bundle of drgs out under their arms and set up in competition across the Street. The stuff of urban myth, I know, but this really happened. They were selling fake automotive parts branded as Siemens. It was such a problem that the Chinese branches were disconnected from seeing confidential material from the rest of the global network. In big business, I think it is now a little better than it was, but for the smaller stuff they still turn a blind eye.
    Last edited by Qwin; 05-06-2017 at 14:56.
    Ken

    http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/
    DIY Technics/ProJect based Turntable + Terminator linear tracker + Ortofon MC20 Supreme / Pro-Ject Phono box & Pre Box RS / KMTech Active X-Over / Nakamichi AVP1 Power / DIY Sealed Three Way Speakers / Stello CDT100 Transport / DAC Magic.

  4. #24
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    With needle drops there is a UK copyright issue. If we allow them here, for instance, then Google kick off about it.

    Copying for one's own use in this country is still illegal as well.

    My understanding of patents is that aside from the Chinese who don't care and can't be touched anyway, that it is still impossible to protect your patents unless you are a multinational company with bottomless pockets.

    I used to go out with the daughter of the bloke who invented those stick on fingers that made it look like someone was trapped in the boot of your car.

    He told me that there was no viable way to protect it so when it took off he just sold as many as he could before the copies arrived on the market. He said he got one good year and an E class Merc out of it.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Technics SL1200 with Sumiko h/s & Nagaoka MP50 * Firebottle valve MM phono stage * Parasound CDPi1000 * NVA P90SA passive pre / Krell KSA50S Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *



    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S Thompson

  5. #25
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    I fail to see the point of taking a vinyl copy of what was probably a digital recording in the first place (unless recorded before about 1985 or certain audiophile labels) and then turning it back into a digital copy.... the only possible reason being to add "nice" distortion and a bit of background clicks and pops for that "authentic sound"
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  6. #26
    Join Date: Jan 2013

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    I'm Ken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    With needle drops there is a UK copyright issue. If we allow them here, for instance, then Google kick off about it.

    Copying for one's own use in this country is still illegal as well.

    My understanding of patents is that aside from the Chinese who don't care and can't be touched anyway, that it is still impossible to protect your patents unless you are a multinational company with bottomless pockets.

    I used to go out with the daughter of the bloke who invented those stick on fingers that made it look like someone was trapped in the boot of your car.

    He told me that there was no viable way to protect it so when it took off he just sold as many as he could before the copies arrived on the market. He said he got one good year and an E class Merc out of it.
    Copyright - For own use. I don't know about that, you would have to point me at something that states it.

    Companies can not patent anything, a patent has to be registered to an individual who's name will appear on the patent. It is usual practice that you sign away your rights to any patents when you join a company as an employee, whether the thing is thought up in their time or at home it then belongs to them.

    Yes, to maintain patents in all the key market and manufacturing areas is very expensive. I used to despair when inventors brought me ideas they had "patented" waste of their hard earned cash. Most of the time I could pull out a version of what they had brought from the store cupboard, which having prior art made their patent void. They weren't aware the patent office would not validate their claims, just take the money and file it.

    Also the patent has to be well written.
    I have been asked on more than one occasion to break a patent (get round it). One took me 30min. and another, after consulting a patent lawyer for confirmation, was so bad that even the companies own product didn't infringe the patent designed to protect it.

    There is a quirk in America, where your employer has to purchase the rights from you, the standard fee is a one dollar coin. When my employer in the UK registered patents in America with my name on them, they had to give me a dollar coin each time and I had to sign a contract form.

    The fingers in car thing has nothing patentable in its make up, it would be a registered design/copyright issue and like you say, expensive to try and stop the imitators.
    Last edited by Qwin; 05-06-2017 at 16:02.
    Ken

    http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/
    DIY Technics/ProJect based Turntable + Terminator linear tracker + Ortofon MC20 Supreme / Pro-Ject Phono box & Pre Box RS / KMTech Active X-Over / Nakamichi AVP1 Power / DIY Sealed Three Way Speakers / Stello CDT100 Transport / DAC Magic.

  7. #27
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I don't know. I can sort of envisage a situation where a mint first press, played on a very good vinyl set up, then copied to a CD, could easily be better than the CD version which might be taken from an nth gen master and has had all of the dynamic range squashed out of it in addition.

    Take Sinatra At The Sands - I have the CD version (very good) and a CDR with the fancy analogue Tim DP re-mastering that Marco copied from vinyl for me. Same recording but sounds different. I could see that some people would buy copies like that so long as they were not too expensive and it was legal. Which it isn't of course.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Technics SL1200 with Sumiko h/s & Nagaoka MP50 * Firebottle valve MM phono stage * Parasound CDPi1000 * NVA P90SA passive pre / Krell KSA50S Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *



    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S Thompson

  8. #28
    Join Date: Sep 2012

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    I'm Marc.

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    The legality aspect isn't too hard to circumvent, if someone thought there was a business in 'the needledrop' series then they just need to pay the copyright holder - like anyone releasing a compilation album, or these small labels doing reissues etc.

    As for 'backup' copies of cds this is still a dubious legal area and whilst you are allowed to make backups of software it's not as clear for music, certainly 'format shifting' is still of dubious legality in the UK (as I recall they were going to fix it and then chickened out after being paid off by the music industry)

  9. #29
    Join Date: Feb 2013

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    I very much doubt a court would find someone guilty of, say making flac or mp3 copies of his cds to listen to. selling them would be another matter.
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  10. #30
    Join Date: May 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    It is still technically illegal though. Anyway the question was why is no-one making needle drops off of a mint first pressing on a top end vinyl system and selling them? To which one of the answers is copyright. You would certainly be nicked at some point.
    Right. My premise was not the 'garage pirating', but big, legitimate publishing powerhouses. They have the capability to assemble top of the line analog front end (those $300,000 turntables and so on). They also have the capability to hire qualified engineers who will do the most perfect needle drops. And they also have the capability to hire top lawyers who would secure the copyright licensing. That could be a lucrative business model, selling digital music that sounds exactly like it would sound if you had the moolah to put a $300,000 turntable in your home!

    So my thinking is that such awesome needle drops are more a figment of someone's imagination, not a real possibility.
    Don't you just hate it when you cannot detect where the post ends and a signature line begins?

    Alex.

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