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Thread: Taket Batpure - technical questions involving gain, stepup and maths ...

  1. #11
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Jez and I discussed an active solution which is possible but I'm still curious about finding an autoformer that would do the necessary signal boost ... anyway the Batpures are on their way so we'll see if they do anything out of the box without a boost - who knows?
    An autotransformer was what I suggested! Active is in as much as I suggested a separate power amp of just a few Watts to drive it. This allows the super tweeter level to be set with the vol control on the separate amp and isolates the main amp from any undue load from the tweeter/autotransformer combination which may spoil the top end at audio frequencies coming from the main speakers. As we're talking 20KHz plus here a small ferrite transformer should do the trick.

  2. #12
    Join Date: Feb 2010

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    I'm Tom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    An autotransformer was what I suggested! Active is in as much as I suggested a separate power amp of just a few Watts to drive it. This allows the super tweeter level to be set with the vol control on the separate amp and isolates the main amp from any undue load from the tweeter/autotransformer combination which may spoil the top end at audio frequencies coming from the main speakers. As we're talking 20KHz plus here a small ferrite transformer should do the trick.
    Apologies Jez it's just me being too thick to understand what you were saying!

    So how would it be set? Would I have to borrow some specialised kit to set the 'volume' (as it were)?
    Speakers - 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys with custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Preamp - EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII with Ikeda IT345-CR1 and Ortofon 309 Limited tonearms; Cartridges: Miyajima Madake, Zero Mono 0.7 and Premium 1.0 retipped by Ana Mighty Sound with bamboo cantilever, Ortofon SPU Royal N and Shure M3D with Jico stylus; phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport.

    'Wer nicht liebt Wein, Weib und Gesang der ist ein Narr sein Leben lang.'

  3. #13
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Apologies Jez it's just me being too thick to understand what you were saying!

    So how would it be set? Would I have to borrow some specialised kit to set the 'volume' (as it were)?
    As I hinted in PM's there will never be any way of setting the "correct" volume or of measuring it. There is no tried and tested well worn path to success with something like this. By the very nature of ultrasonics you can't hear it.... nor are microphones available that are accurate from audio frequencies to 100KHz and the nearest to this that does exist costs a small fortune. It is going to be "suck it and see" whatever you do. I recommend a small chip amp ("gain clone" horrible phrase!) of maybe 5WPC with it's own volume control. This way you can continuously vary the output of the super tweeter, hopefully from zero to "too much"... quite how you gauge the correct amount of inaudible sound is something where your own subjective faculties are I guess where the buck stops. The batpures will look mainly capacitive load wise and then there is the effect of the autotransformer... meaning? Well meaning that the combination of batpures and transformer MAY put a nasty load on your main amp and tend to spoil the top end you CAN hear coming from your Tannoys! Using a small separate amp gets round this, as well as making it easy to vary the level of the batpures. Obviously for the "solution" described we are talking considerably more money than the 30 - 50 the batpures cost!

  4. #14
    Join Date: Dec 2015

    Location: vancouver

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    I'm danilo.

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    Odd... Why is it that septegenarians seem to gravitate to Super Duper tweeter "gizmos' .
    When the typical 60 yr old ...Cannot... hear 14 khz? Unless perhaps a genetic Superman.

    Possibly similar to Linn setups which some Males love.. while Wimmin often run screaming from the room the gear is playing in?
    A ridiculous tilt to the Extreme frequencies so Granpa can hear an E string.

    Don't actually care either way..... merely curious.
    My audio bits: Thorens / diy phono, CD/dvd player(s), diy pre, F6, Tannoy Golds in my boxes / my xovers, and of course all strung together with basic diy Wires
    Lots of Cd's, yet more audio files, a couple of hundred semi worn Lps.

  5. #15
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

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    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    As has been commented elsewhere, whilst you cannot directly hear frequencies above 20kHz (unless you are asthmatic), and this falls to ~10kHz for the over 60s, you may be aware of supersonic information in the harmonic spectrum of instruments. Tannoy themselves market a supertweeter operating only above 10kHz, and higher.
    tweeters
    I see no harm in experimenting with these piezoelectric supertweeters. Just "suck it and see".

    My own preferred solution would be to use a dedicated headphone amp with a 5W resistor of a few Ohms wired in series with the piezoelectric tweeter. Using a 10:1 step-up transformer will cause the capacitance of the load, as seen by the amplifier, to be increased by a factor of 100.
    Last edited by Barry; 09-06-2017 at 17:02.
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

  6. #16
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

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    I'm Jez.

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    2500 for Tannoy's own super tweeter!!!

  7. #17
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    I think the Townshend units are ~ 1K.

    (Just checked, the RRP is 899 inc. VAT)
    Last edited by Barry; 09-06-2017 at 17:29. Reason: Addition
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

  8. #18
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

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    I'm Tom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    As has been commented elsewhere, whilst you cannot directly hear frequencies above 20kHz (unless you are asthmatic), and this falls to ~10kHz for the over 60s, you may be aware of supersonic information in the harmonic spectrum of instruments. Tannoy themselves market a supertweeter operating only above 10kHz, and higher.
    tweeters
    I see no harm in experimenting with these piezoelectric supertweeters. Just "suck it and see".

    My own preferred solution would be to use a dedicated headphone amp with a 5W resistor of a few Ohms wired in series with the piezoelectric tweeter. Using a 10:1 step-up transformer will cause the capacitance of the load, as seen by the amplifier, to be increased by a factor of 100.

    I've played with supertweeters on and off for over a decade (having owned Fostexes, Townshends, Audio Smile and Tannoy supertweeters with different speakers in the past). Well aware of the limits of hearing (my own especially which measures to between 11-12khz, fairly typical for mid 50s, though the wife being in her early 40s hears 18khz).

    Also aware of the research that shows frequencies above 20khz can have an effect on the body/brain (as recorded by MRI scans), mechanism currently unknown. And all the debates of whether there is 'music' up there or not blah blah di blah. I've seen the same utterly pointless threads pinging between believers/skeptics/agnostics for many years and not really motivated to repeat them.

    I'm simply curious about these things and I'm now talking to Jez about a dedicated amp that will take the load off the main amp which seems eminently sensible. If they have an effect they have an effect, if they don't. I'm totally uninterested in any sort of 'debate' with anyone who isn't either 1) sat next to me or 2) is running a similar sort of experiment, the thread is here because I was looking for technical input.
    Speakers - 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys with custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Preamp - EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII with Ikeda IT345-CR1 and Ortofon 309 Limited tonearms; Cartridges: Miyajima Madake, Zero Mono 0.7 and Premium 1.0 retipped by Ana Mighty Sound with bamboo cantilever, Ortofon SPU Royal N and Shure M3D with Jico stylus; phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport.

    'Wer nicht liebt Wein, Weib und Gesang der ist ein Narr sein Leben lang.'

  9. #19
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

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    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Well that's put me in my place then! (And yes, I have been present at such experiments.)
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

  10. #20
    Join Date: Feb 2010

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    I'm Tom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Well that's put me in my place then!
    Wasn't aimed at you Barry but rather to a post several above yours from one of the forum's regular wind-up mechants.
    Speakers - 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys with custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Preamp - EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII with Ikeda IT345-CR1 and Ortofon 309 Limited tonearms; Cartridges: Miyajima Madake, Zero Mono 0.7 and Premium 1.0 retipped by Ana Mighty Sound with bamboo cantilever, Ortofon SPU Royal N and Shure M3D with Jico stylus; phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport.

    'Wer nicht liebt Wein, Weib und Gesang der ist ein Narr sein Leben lang.'

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