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Thread: Taket Batpure - technical questions involving gain, stepup and maths ...

  1. #1
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 2,000
    I'm Tom.

    Default Taket Batpure - technical questions involving gain, stepup and maths ...

    Intrigued by another thread I've stumped up for a pair of these

    http://www.taket.jp/batpure/batpure.html



    The specs are interesting, on the face of it about 70db (1 watt/1m I assume though that may well be wide of the mark), while the impedance is 4 kohm - I actually have little conception of what that means when it comes to a transducer but it would appear to be a bit odd.

    My Tannoys are 90db/1w/1m and I am keen at least to try to match things.

    I've tried all sorts of supertweeter experiments over the the years - probably most successful with Quad ESLs and Townshends - and had come to the conclusion that the 'benefits' they offer are usually are usually well in the audible band ie they fill in for a perceived gap in audible HF, where one exists. Though I have been intrigued by some experimental evidence that the body can somehow perceive frequencies far higher than our ears can be measured at (and avoiding for now at least the question of whether there's any meaningful programme material 'up there' - I'll be using mainly vinyl and my EAR 912 measures up beyong 50khz).

    It's been suggested elsewhere that a step-up transformer of around 1:10 - easily available for phono use - might be about right to boost things from 70db to 90db, but I'd like to run that past the mathematicians here as surely that 4kohm must come into play. Also questioning whether an off the shelf phono stepup would have any useful (in phase at a minimum) frequency response above 20 khz.

    Some people have got around all this by using these Batpures with dedicated amplifiers - would obviously need to be more sensitive than my 1v power amp, though that's not too hard - but it would seem that the only way to set the correct level for this sort of arrangement would be with a dedicated high frequency measuring device - not many microphones will read at 50khz.

    This is only a bit of fun, for interest's stake and I don't want to spend a packet on it - but people have reported good results with these things and the wife complained recently on coming home from the house of her old professor (they have top end Tannoy supertweeters) why we don't have any as she thinks they add 'air' (we've measured her ears to 18khz rather better than my 11 khz so it may well again be the audible band she is talking about).

    Anyway, I'm keen to give the supertweeter idea one last go and would appreciate the technical viewpoint.
    Speakers - 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys with custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Preamp - EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII with Ikeda IT345-CR1 and Ortofon 309 Limited tonearms; Cartridges: Miyajima Madake, Zero Mono 0.7 and Premium 1.0 retipped by Ana Mighty Sound with bamboo cantilever, Ortofon SPU Royal N and Shure M3D with Jico stylus; phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport.

    'Wer nicht liebt Wein, Weib und Gesang der ist ein Narr sein Leben lang.'

  2. #2
    Join Date: Nov 2008

    Location: Rossendale

    Posts: 8,006
    I'm AMusicFanNotAnAudiophile.

    Default

    Why not just hang them off the back of the speaker terminals, as suggested on the website?
    You won't damage them.
    Chris

    Once we've made sense of our world, we wanna go fuck up everybody else's because his or her truth doesn't match mine. But this is the problem. Truth is individual calculation. Which means because we all have different perspectives, there isn't one singular truth, is there?

  3. #3
    Join Date: Jul 2011

    Location: Northamptonish

    Posts: 1,579
    I'm Peter.

    Default

    Bat-tweeters!! I don't remember Adam West having those ...

    It says max voltage is 150 volts, so using a transformer to up the voltage at your main speaker terminals by 10x might be taking it beyond its limits? Depending how they work, it may well be that you don't get any more volume from them by increasing the voltage, anyway. Better, maybe, to stick little horns on the front of them?
    “Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.” - William Bruce Cameron

  4. #4
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,647
    I'm Jez.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Intrigued by another thread I've stumped up for a pair of these

    http://www.taket.jp/batpure/batpure.html



    The specs are interesting, on the face of it about 70db (1 watt/1m I assume though that may well be wide of the mark), while the impedance is 4 kohm - I actually have little conception of what that means when it comes to a transducer but it would appear to be a bit odd.

    My Tannoys are 90db/1w/1m and I am keen at least to try to match things.

    I've tried all sorts of supertweeter experiments over the the years - probably most successful with Quad ESLs and Townshends - and had come to the conclusion that the 'benefits' they offer are usually are usually well in the audible band ie they fill in for a perceived gap in audible HF, where one exists. Though I have been intrigued by some experimental evidence that the body can somehow perceive frequencies far higher than our ears can be measured at (and avoiding for now at least the question of whether there's any meaningful programme material 'up there' - I'll be using mainly vinyl and my EAR 912 measures up beyong 50khz).

    It's been suggested elsewhere that a step-up transformer of around 1:10 - easily available for phono use - might be about right to boost things from 70db to 90db, but I'd like to run that past the mathematicians here as surely that 4kohm must come into play. Also questioning whether an off the shelf phono stepup would have any useful (in phase at a minimum) frequency response above 20 khz.

    Some people have got around all this by using these Batpures with dedicated amplifiers - would obviously need to be more sensitive than my 1v power amp, though that's not too hard - but it would seem that the only way to set the correct level for this sort of arrangement would be with a dedicated high frequency measuring device - not many microphones will read at 50khz.

    This is only a bit of fun, for interest's stake and I don't want to spend a packet on it - but people have reported good results with these things and the wife complained recently on coming home from the house of her old professor (they have top end Tannoy supertweeters) why we don't have any as she thinks they add 'air' (we've measured her ears to 18khz rather better than my 11 khz so it may well again be the audible band she is talking about).

    Anyway, I'm keen to give the supertweeter idea one last go and would appreciate the technical viewpoint.
    Head amps will generally go beyond 100KHz no problem. 1000KHz is quite possible.

  5. #5
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,647
    I'm Jez.

    Default

    This may be relevant for some with supertweeters and vinyl.... phono stages which use series feedback RIAA don't continue to roll of the top end after 20KHz in the way the RIAA standard requires and could potentially have far too much output at say 40KHz.... Without seeing a circuit diagram for an individual unit I can't say which are affected. Passive eq and other types of active eq are not a problem in this area but series feedback eq is not in any way unusual, in fact it's the most common method in integrated amps, older units and some high end gear uses it too.

  6. #6
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 2,000
    I'm Tom.

    Default

    Jez, I'll be in touch directly, you might have answered my question!
    Speakers - 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys with custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Preamp - EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII with Ikeda IT345-CR1 and Ortofon 309 Limited tonearms; Cartridges: Miyajima Madake, Zero Mono 0.7 and Premium 1.0 retipped by Ana Mighty Sound with bamboo cantilever, Ortofon SPU Royal N and Shure M3D with Jico stylus; phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport.

    'Wer nicht liebt Wein, Weib und Gesang der ist ein Narr sein Leben lang.'

  7. #7
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 6,726
    I'm AnDreW.

    Default

    I just bought a second pair from a neat little project I've planned for my Tannoys.
    SS CD Teac VRDS25X(Mega Modded) DAC Caiman SEG+Anker PSU DECK 1210 Mat Analouge Studio Crystal Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony arm Board Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/Jaeger(low-impedance) connector/3 StageRegs/Recapped PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MCOrtofon Cadenza Black CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    Valve PRECroft Epoch(Mega Modded) AMP Sondex S100 SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Reference XO DECK Garrard301 MatTeunto GunMetal Bearing SPH PlinthMoldovan Arm SME 3012(Ikeda Ag wired) PSUPheonix PSU+Tachomter MCAg Meister SPU/DECCA Maroon CABLESArm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ Speaker3mm2Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostage4Box Paradise


  8. #8
    Join Date: May 2011

    Location: Glasgow

    Posts: 6,303
    I'm Brian.

    Default

    I'm planning to do this too Andy

    Please keep us posted on this .
    Regards
    Brian

    Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment . (Rumi )


    Korus Computer Audio music server .
    DAC 3 French DAC
    Amplifier : Rega Brio R
    Speakers : Tannoy 637
    Interconnects : MS Audio / Klotz MC5000 .
    Speaker cables : Chord Epic Twin

  9. #9
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

    Posts: 28,565
    I'm Geoff.

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    I have a variety of supertweeters, but currently use none with the Tannoys. Tried ribbons and moving coil and found the nicest results were from Celestion HF2000 units. They just seem to blend in with the Tannoy top end well.
    Mr. Tact!

    Main system: MMs/ADCs/Low output MC's/One rare Japanese SUT/One scarce British phono stage/various tonearms/hefty Japanese DD TT and hefty Japanese BD TT and small British BD TT. 4 CD players/2 jitter buster/2 DACs/Valve buffer. TVC stepped attenuator or valve pre-amp or solid state pre-amp. Current dumping power-amp or either of two Class A SS power-amp or Class A EL34 valve monos or big Japanese (part Class A) integrated. Big dual concentric speakers/Smaller dual concentric speakers/Two way British compacts and full range speakers, amongst others. And too much more to list!

  10. #10
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 2,000
    I'm Tom.

    Default

    Jez and I discussed an active solution which is possible but I'm still curious about finding an autoformer that would do the necessary signal boost ... anyway the Batpures are on their way so we'll see if they do anything out of the box without a boost - who knows?
    Speakers - 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys with custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Preamp - EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII with Ikeda IT345-CR1 and Ortofon 309 Limited tonearms; Cartridges: Miyajima Madake, Zero Mono 0.7 and Premium 1.0 retipped by Ana Mighty Sound with bamboo cantilever, Ortofon SPU Royal N and Shure M3D with Jico stylus; phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport.

    'Wer nicht liebt Wein, Weib und Gesang der ist ein Narr sein Leben lang.'

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