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Thread: Taket Batpure - technical questions involving gain, stepup and maths ...

  1. #1
    montesquieu Guest

    Default Taket Batpure - technical questions involving gain, stepup and maths ...

    Intrigued by another thread I've stumped up for a pair of these

    http://www.taket.jp/batpure/batpure.html



    The specs are interesting, on the face of it about 70db (1 watt/1m I assume though that may well be wide of the mark), while the impedance is 4 kohm - I actually have little conception of what that means when it comes to a transducer but it would appear to be a bit odd.

    My Tannoys are 90db/1w/1m and I am keen at least to try to match things.

    I've tried all sorts of supertweeter experiments over the the years - probably most successful with Quad ESLs and Townshends - and had come to the conclusion that the 'benefits' they offer are usually are usually well in the audible band ie they fill in for a perceived gap in audible HF, where one exists. Though I have been intrigued by some experimental evidence that the body can somehow perceive frequencies far higher than our ears can be measured at (and avoiding for now at least the question of whether there's any meaningful programme material 'up there' - I'll be using mainly vinyl and my EAR 912 measures up beyong 50khz).

    It's been suggested elsewhere that a step-up transformer of around 1:10 - easily available for phono use - might be about right to boost things from 70db to 90db, but I'd like to run that past the mathematicians here as surely that 4kohm must come into play. Also questioning whether an off the shelf phono stepup would have any useful (in phase at a minimum) frequency response above 20 khz.

    Some people have got around all this by using these Batpures with dedicated amplifiers - would obviously need to be more sensitive than my 1v power amp, though that's not too hard - but it would seem that the only way to set the correct level for this sort of arrangement would be with a dedicated high frequency measuring device - not many microphones will read at 50khz.

    This is only a bit of fun, for interest's stake and I don't want to spend a packet on it - but people have reported good results with these things and the wife complained recently on coming home from the house of her old professor (they have top end Tannoy supertweeters) why we don't have any as she thinks they add 'air' (we've measured her ears to 18khz rather better than my 11 khz so it may well again be the audible band she is talking about).

    Anyway, I'm keen to give the supertweeter idea one last go and would appreciate the technical viewpoint.

  2. #2
    Join Date: Nov 2008

    Location: Valley of the Hazels

    Posts: 9,139
    I'm AMusicFanNotAnAudiophile.

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    Why not just hang them off the back of the speaker terminals, as suggested on the website?
    You won't damage them.
    Chris



    Common sense isn't anymore!

  3. #3
    Join Date: Jul 2011

    Location: Northamptonshire

    Posts: 1,914
    I'm Peter.

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    Bat-tweeters!! I don't remember Adam West having those ...

    It says max voltage is 150 volts, so using a transformer to up the voltage at your main speaker terminals by 10x might be taking it beyond its limits? Depending how they work, it may well be that you don't get any more volume from them by increasing the voltage, anyway. Better, maybe, to stick little horns on the front of them?

  4. #4
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Intrigued by another thread I've stumped up for a pair of these

    http://www.taket.jp/batpure/batpure.html



    The specs are interesting, on the face of it about 70db (1 watt/1m I assume though that may well be wide of the mark), while the impedance is 4 kohm - I actually have little conception of what that means when it comes to a transducer but it would appear to be a bit odd.

    My Tannoys are 90db/1w/1m and I am keen at least to try to match things.

    I've tried all sorts of supertweeter experiments over the the years - probably most successful with Quad ESLs and Townshends - and had come to the conclusion that the 'benefits' they offer are usually are usually well in the audible band ie they fill in for a perceived gap in audible HF, where one exists. Though I have been intrigued by some experimental evidence that the body can somehow perceive frequencies far higher than our ears can be measured at (and avoiding for now at least the question of whether there's any meaningful programme material 'up there' - I'll be using mainly vinyl and my EAR 912 measures up beyong 50khz).

    It's been suggested elsewhere that a step-up transformer of around 1:10 - easily available for phono use - might be about right to boost things from 70db to 90db, but I'd like to run that past the mathematicians here as surely that 4kohm must come into play. Also questioning whether an off the shelf phono stepup would have any useful (in phase at a minimum) frequency response above 20 khz.

    Some people have got around all this by using these Batpures with dedicated amplifiers - would obviously need to be more sensitive than my 1v power amp, though that's not too hard - but it would seem that the only way to set the correct level for this sort of arrangement would be with a dedicated high frequency measuring device - not many microphones will read at 50khz.

    This is only a bit of fun, for interest's stake and I don't want to spend a packet on it - but people have reported good results with these things and the wife complained recently on coming home from the house of her old professor (they have top end Tannoy supertweeters) why we don't have any as she thinks they add 'air' (we've measured her ears to 18khz rather better than my 11 khz so it may well again be the audible band she is talking about).

    Anyway, I'm keen to give the supertweeter idea one last go and would appreciate the technical viewpoint.
    Head amps will generally go beyond 100KHz no problem. 1000KHz is quite possible.
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  5. #5
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

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    This may be relevant for some with supertweeters and vinyl.... phono stages which use series feedback RIAA don't continue to roll of the top end after 20KHz in the way the RIAA standard requires and could potentially have far too much output at say 40KHz.... Without seeing a circuit diagram for an individual unit I can't say which are affected. Passive eq and other types of active eq are not a problem in this area but series feedback eq is not in any way unusual, in fact it's the most common method in integrated amps, older units and some high end gear uses it too.
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  6. #6
    montesquieu Guest

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    Jez, I'll be in touch directly, you might have answered my question!

  7. #7
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 9,302
    I'm Andrew.

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    I just bought a second pair from a neat little project I've planned for my Tannoys.
    SS
    CD Teac VRDS25X(Audiotuned) DECK 1210 Mat Crystal Audio Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony armboard Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/3 Stage Regs/Recap PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MC Cadenza Black FGS CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    VALVE
    PRE
    Croft Epoch(Modded) AMP Sondex S100 (Modded) SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Ref XO + Batpure supertweeters DECK Garrard 301 Mat Teunto Bearings 401(Bastin) Plinth Bamboo Arms 3009/3012 PSU Eagle+Tachometer MC Ag Meister II/FGS + Ortofon SPU MONO CABLES Arm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ SpeakerPC Tripple C+WBT-0681 Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostages Paradise(4 Box Mega-Modded) / Croft Musicmaker



  8. #8
    Join Date: May 2011

    Location: Glasgow

    Posts: 7,718
    I'm Brian.

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    I'm planning to do this too Andy

    Please keep us posted on this .
    Regards
    Brian

    Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment . (Rumi )


    Korus Computer Audio music server
    JustBoom DAC . HRT Musicstreamer 2
    Amplifier : Sony TA FB740R
    Speakers : Tannoy 637
    Interconnects : MS Audio / Klotz MC5000 .
    Speaker cables : Western Electric 16AG

  9. #9
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    I have a variety of supertweeters, but currently use none with the Tannoys. Tried ribbons and moving coil and found the nicest results were from Celestion HF2000 units. They just seem to blend in with the Tannoy top end well.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  10. #10
    montesquieu Guest

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    Jez and I discussed an active solution which is possible but I'm still curious about finding an autoformer that would do the necessary signal boost ... anyway the Batpures are on their way so we'll see if they do anything out of the box without a boost - who knows?

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