Which country has the best hi fi industry in the world

[Firebottle]

Anyone can bring £5k worth of homemade stuff to a test and I doubt it would compete with £15k.

You'd better believe it would. There are some very talented DIYers and designers, not necessarily on this forum, that make stuff that is world class.

On this forum Jez is a very experienced designer, having heard one of his products I would certainly mark that as world class.

[Macca]

I'd agree it's much more difficult. A seriously more difficult question to get £500 speakers sounding like £4000 ones. That's my point which you are making for me. And Id never critique anyone wanting to spend the money and get the most out if it, but that's a different question to best hi fi.

The trick is to buy the £4K speakers for £400. Or to build some speakers for £400 that compare to the £4K speakers. There is not a lot of moneys worth of parts in a speaker retailing for £4K. Likely about £200 was spent there.

The other trick is not to waste money on things that makes no difference. But that's a whole topic in itself.

[Marco]

Absolutely yes. People can come to mine if they like. Maybe try £2k worth of amps against say my £7k Cyrus stuff. Use my pmc speakers as control.

Good! Then, we'll arrange that sometime, sooner rather than later

It's like saying you can go and have a burger for £1 outside b and q, or go into town and have a £7 one in a gourmet type burger place. I don't need to question if the £1 one might be better, most people would just go and have a decent meal.

Sorry, don't get what you mean....

However, have you considered the notion that the gourmet type burger place might simply be selling the same burgers as the van outside B&Q, and fooling their customers into thinking that it's "gourmet", simply because it's presented beautifully, and they're eating it in posh surroundings and paying top dollar for the privilege?

Also, what if you know a top chef, and he regularly invites you round to his place for a meal, either free of charge or costing you half the price of what the same meal would be in his restaurant? Does that make the meal any less good than it would be if you'd paid much more for exactly the same thing, eaten at said restaurant?

Now consider replacing the meal and the chef, with your relationship with a top audio designer, who has the ability to build superb hi-fi equipment, as well as anyone commercially, just like the chef could do with food, but like the chef, charges you what amounts to 'mates rates' (in comparison with the cost of a similar standard of commercial equipment), simply because he works from home and doesn't have many overheads...

Do you see where I'm going with this?? And some of us here have those types of friends!

Marco.

[Marco]

Ps You also have to link ones blind preference for the sound in the two systems to what you consider better, and see apatern of this preference for expense. And what then significance you place on the preference test for the hypothesis test I mention. As with any hi fi our preference is so much dependent on what systems we've had.

Fancy addressing my post #104?

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Indeed. In that respect, I look forward soon to being the proud new owner of Simon's Sussex pile!

In any case, the idea that you get what you pay for, whilst often the case, ignores the fact (especially in high-end audio) where you can pay massively over the odds simply for the badge, and/or the notion of exclusivity, especially when you get to the likes of £150k systems.

How much of what you're paying for is 'brand/badge desirability', and crucially, how much is down to what is perceived by the manufacturer as what the market will stand?

In that respect, my experience of folk (and remember I've worked for specialist hi-fi dealerships in the past, so I'm familiar with their clientele), is that if it's too cheap they won't buy it!!

That's why some hi-fi equipment costs the huge sums it does: to create an air of exclusivity, which appeals to their customers., not because it's necessarily any better than something that's half the price, or less...

So once you've knocked all of the above off of the price tag, how much has *actually* been spent where it matters most, 'under the hood'...? *Only then* will you know if 'you get what you pay for', in terms of out-and-out sonic performance, or not!

Marco.

Yep. If you buy a £2K amp from a big manufacturer and through a dealer then the dealer gets about £1K for selling it for a start... by the time you look at overheads for the staff, advertising budget, PR gurus, manufacturers profit margin etc you could be looking at as little as £100 or so in material cost to the manufacturer.

[walpurgis]

The other trick is not to waste money on things that makes no difference. But that's a whole topic in itself.

Good point Martin. You should start a thread on that!

[Marco]

Yep. If you buy a £2K amp from a big manufacturer and through a dealer then the dealer gets about £1K for selling it for a start... by the time you look at overheads for the staff, advertising budget, PR gurus, manufacturers profit margin etc you could be looking at as little as £100 or so in material cost to the manufacturer.

Precisely!! So how exactly does that impact on Simon's notion of 'you get what you pay for'?

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

You'd better believe it would. There are some very talented DIYers and designers, not necessarily on this forum, that make stuff that is world class.

On this forum Jez is a very experienced designer, having heard one of his products I would certainly mark that as world class.

Thanks Alan That would have been my rather expensive head amp I guess...

Heard your KIN briefly at a NEBO and thought it excellent

[Dynamics]

The trick is to buy the £4K speakers for £400. Or to build some speakers for £400 that compare to the £4K speakers. There is not a lot of moneys worth of parts in a speaker retailing for £4K. Likely about £200 was spent there.

The other trick is not to waste money on things that makes no difference. But that's a whole topic in itself.

I'd dispute that as the £400 one is probably at least ten years old, the tech has moved on now. The stuff is getting old and not so new, you end up replacing the crossovers etc. There is not a lot of money in speakers yes but an awful lot of design and costs and incidental staff costs, and buildings. Stuff that has to go in to designing the speaker. And you cant expect people to believe that someone like naim who have million pound development budgets probably, can't do something better with that than an odd jobber with a soldering iron and no decent design and testing budget. An awful lot goes into developing a hi fi amp I'm sure.

[Dynamics]

Precisely!! So how exactly does that impact on Simon's notion of 'you get what you pay for'?

Marco.

Yes but arkless don't have the development budget to produce the same quality I'd doubt, relative of say of a naim or arcam etc, the staff, The bigger premises, the hr and health and safety costs etc. Also not as scaled. That's before those comments to potential customers.