Which country has the best hi fi industry in the world

[struth]

The empire could rip you apart

[Marco]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Pot_Men

No he was right first time!

Marco.

[Dynamics]

Not necessarily. That's what forums are for these days!

Bear in mind, I'm talking about facilitating the interests of enthusiasts, such as you and me, not the general public. WE get to know about the good stuff because people we've met on AoS, or on other forums, and perhaps have since become friends with, and who's ears we trust, report on it - that is if we don't already know about it ourselves, as a result of visiting someone or attending a bake-off.



Yes you can, because in this instance I'm talking about the £30k Naim system I used to own (CDS2/XPS2/NAC52/Supercap/135s), all bought brand new. I used that with a pair of Spendor SP100s, which was my system for five years before I got into what I'm into now, and learned some very harsh and valuable lessons on how best to invest my money on hi-fi equipment.

Therefore, I'm 100% qualified to make that comparison. I'm not talking about the stuff Naim produce now, although I have my views on that from what I've recently heard at shows. Honestly, if you knew my history with Naim equipment (which I've been using on and off since the 80s), you'd know that few have been more of a fanboy than me!

I still respect the company and consider Paul Stephenson (now retired) as a friend, and that will never change, but reality is reality.



YOU will be, if you get yourself around and listen to other people's kit, especially those who own either DIY or bespoke produced equipment from small, specialist manufacturers.. Use YOUR EARS, rather than relying on those of anyone else, unless you're the unsociable type who just likes to read magazines and keep himself to himself



That's good, and what it's all about, but the only way to learn and understand what else there is out there, with a view to fundamentally improving upon what you currently have (should you wish to do so), and subsequently obtain the 'biggest bang for your buck', is to go out and hear it - and not just inside the shops of high street dealers. *That's* what it's about, not conducting a competition.

Marco.

You still have to market though because you can't rely just on a forum to tell you that a product is great. Because the numbers are somewhat limited. I for instance haven't seen anyone talk about atc speakers very often on this forum. How would I choose them if I wanted too if nobody has them on the forum. I'd rather rely on what people are buying, what reviewers are saying, what dealers are shifting. Forums have a purpose for sharing ideas and asking people's opinions on buying and that's important but I don't think for buying it's the be all and end all, as there doesn't tend to be enough people interested in the particular specific product enough to want it, to think are their views good enough. But a dealer who sells brand a at one price and brand b at the same price, and shifts more of brand a, say 100 more units in a short time frame, is infinitely better information. Also review super tests in mags. Clearly you still have to listen yourself anyway.

I must admit I find it odd how people on this forum often talk about lots of non high street products, other than your current naim, Cyrus, pmc, atc, which are often not current, but aren't talking about current mass market or popular decent hi fi offerings. How would they know therefore if products piss on others.

I don't agree again as saying systems necessarily piss over others, as it's often just often a case of what's different, but clearly some systems do. But you've admitted yourself the products you've owned are different to current offerings. Maybe not all but some.

I'm not really interested in if another persons is 5 percent better than mine, and by the way I believe that's often a very subjective 5 percent. I just want to know what's fantastic, what works really well, how it can be quantified. I think often what people are doing with some of the discussions about changing things is often without this context of what's great. Otherwise why do it. I don't want to constantly try and improve sound just for the sake of 5 percent, but what's fantastic or much improved. But I do think it's funny, coming at this with a certain amount of objectivity as a music lover more than hi-fi-ist, that audiophile people's attitudes to hi fi is that' mine is always better than anyone else's', or mine is better than an equivalent or higher priced system. It's like ones attitude to driving is better than someone else's. It's a kind of snob thing which does get shouted down in the media and I understand why. But I recoil when I hear someone say a cheaper hi fi is better than a more expensive one. Not always the case, but mostly, and this is just real world and you can only do so much at one price. Also there is a reason why pmc are expensive, or naim for e.g., because people are prepared to pay the market price. There is a reason a lesser product is a lower price and they can't achieve the same price for similar spec, because it's not thought of as decent enough. Hard market economics but the rules of economics are true. An obscure less well known hi fi brand would be the first to charge the same as pmc if their products became very reverred because the first rule of business is to achieve highest market price.

I've thought about what would happen if you took the Pepsi challenge with a less reverred brand and price, and it's pretty obvious what would happen.

I'd rather take the attitude mine is good, but it's not the best, nor will it piss on any other system as that's so much dependent not just on me but lots of people, and it's so difficult to get hi fi to make proper comparisons too. Also its so dependent on value, since if £5k extra on the system is worth 20% in sound benefits, is it worth the same value to someone else. You can be assured it won't.

[Arkless Electronics]

The attitudes expounded upon by "dynamics" are exactly those which give the single biggest problem to small manufacturers such as myself... Unfortunately it's a fairly common attitude as well... but fortunately there are still plenty of dissenters too, as eloquently described by Marco!
What do I mean? This whole wanting to be "told" by 20 other enthusiasts, 4 magazine reviews and 3 dealers what to buy before even considering anything.... and even then if it's not a "brand name" it isn't considered.

In my case I'll often offer to make bespoke equipment. One off's. Often I'm hoping this may turn to lets say a run of 10 or 20... But that would probably be it. Obviously to people who require such a mountain of "peer approval" and glossy reviews before buying anything are not going to consider a unit which may have a total production run of 5 or 10!

A specific-ish case would be that I have on several occasions posted in threads about PSU's for specific items that I can build ANY PSU for ANY application at all power levels and voltages, linear regulated or not. Zero interest is the usual result. Why? My best guess is that if, for example, we take the case of PSU's for Technics 1210 TT's, there are a couple of fairly well known PSU's already available whose names always come up in any such discussion, now a non technical person probably won't realise that to an EE such as myself designing and building such a PSU is a piece of piss (to use an old phrase), dead easy, I can confidently say that any similar PSU made by myself will be AT LEAST as good, if not better than, anything else available from anywhere else... BUT I guess no one wants to be the first to try an alternative option... simply because they've not read about it elsewhere or seen it recommended elsewhere!

[Dynamics]

Well I sympathise and I admire you for having a hi fi business and being enterprising. You have to admit though that people buy according to what they know and you probably would too. I wouldn't buy a unknown model of car from Lithuania, available in a few dealers in the uk, when everyone is driving fords and vw's and I've tested the Ford out and it's difficult to test such an unknown Lithuanian car.

But I'd gladly borrow power supplies of yours and post around on forums to sing them up if they are any good in my system. I just borrowed a isol-8 mini sub axis, which was pretty good but expensive. And I'm trying out some power regenerators at present. You should do some bake offs with your kit, if you don't already. I not telling you how to suck eggs.

But it strikes me you maybe need to do a lot more marketing if you say they have not read about it. But if you are doing that and it's not selling that's got to tell you something. Sorry if I'm telling you a hard reality,

I've always thought their is good benefit in conditioning and regeneration but for what they are, they are very expensive. At the moment it seems there is ps audio making regenerators costing thousands, then companies like isotek with the Aquarius and isol-8 with the mini sub axis around the same price, and then power inspired with £500 ish regenerators. So it strikes me there is a huge gap in the market for affordable conditioning with similar devices to the Aquarius. Make one yourself if you can, go round to dealers with a badged or unbadged Aquarius and your device and try and sell them at a cheaper price. Maybe Get them made in the Far East etc. You shouldn't defeat yourself people aren't coming to you.

[Simon_LDT]

My take is that while well-known ''branded'' stuff is fine and there are lots of good stuff out there, I don't think it should always be taken that it's the be all end all. Just because something is popular and/or well marketed doesn't mean it's good (and also doesn't mean it's better than something not as well-known).

Myself personally, I do not take most professional reviews as gospel (especially something like WhatHifi). I'd rather read reviews from many peeps that have heard this stuff, rather than listen to a review in a magazine that has most likely been paid for. Even better if I can hear it in person beforehand. I am generalising a bit of course but that is my opinion. It makes forums like here at AOS vital in my opinion. I've learned so much here.

I'm glad there is more of a shift towards ''direct to consumer'' stuff out there, especially with the economic state these days it just makes sense to cut out the middle men if a manufacturer can do that.

[Dynamics]

My take is that while well-known ''branded'' stuff is fine and there are lots of good stuff out there, I don't think it should always be taken that it's the be all end all. Just because something is popular and/or well marketed doesn't mean it's good (and also doesn't mean it's better than something not as well-known).

Myself personally, I do not take most professional reviews as gospel (especially something like WhatHifi). I'd rather read reviews from many peeps that have heard this stuff, rather than listen to a review in a magazine that has most likely been paid for. Even better if I can hear it in person beforehand. I am generalising a bit of course but that is my opinion. It makes forums like here at AOS vital in my opinion. I've learned so much here.

I'm glad there is more of a shift towards ''direct to consumer'' stuff out there, especially with the economic state these days it just makes sense to cut out the middle men if a manufacturer can do that.

I look on the shop websites to see what customers say, so if ten people big up pmc on one shop and 10 on another , but 2 people big up an obscure brand you know which to demo. But magazines don't get paid by firms like pmc for reviews. Can you imagine what would happen if someone found out, they have to be impartial and they are as people who review often don't own the stuff. Also they review an awful lot and have a finger on the pulse of what's good. Also many of the reviewers work for many mags and online sites.

[Marco]

You have to admit though that people buy according to what they know and you probably would too. I wouldn't buy a unknown model of car from Lithuania, available in a few dealers in the uk, when everyone is driving fords and vw's...

With respect, Simon, that smacks of a sheep-like mentality (simply follow the herd, as they must know best), whilst applying zero lateral thinking, or indeed much thinking at all of your own, and it's the complete OPPOSITE of the approach we champion here on AoS.

Who knows, the Lithuanian car in question might be great (just like Skoda are now, compared with what they were once like)? You simply don't know until you try (drive) the car in question for yourself, and exactly as it is with hi-fi, that's the *only* way you'll ever be sure that it's right for YOU, using your judgement criteria, not someone else's.

Also, if all you want to know about is the likes of Linn, Naim or PMC, or whatever else dealers are 'shifting lots of', then I suspect you've joined the wrong forum. I'll get to your other post later, as right now I'm rather busy.

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Well I sympathise and I admire you for having a hi fi business and being enterprising. You have to admit though that people buy according to what they know and you probably would too. I wouldn't buy a unknown model of car from Lithuania, available in a few dealers in the uk, when everyone is driving fords and vw's and I've tested the Ford out and it's difficult to test such an unknown Lithuanian car.

But I'd gladly borrow power supplies of yours and post around on forums to sing them up if they are any good in my system. I just borrowed a isol-8 mini sub axis, which was pretty good but expensive. And I'm trying out some power regenerators at present. You should do some bake offs with your kit, if you don't already. I not telling you how to suck eggs.

But it strikes me you maybe need to do a lot more marketing if you say they have not read about it. But if you are doing that and it's not selling that's got to tell you something. Sorry if I'm telling you a hard reality,

I've always thought their is good benefit in conditioning and regeneration but for what they are, they are very expensive. At the moment it seems there is ps audio making regenerators costing thousands, then companies like isotek with the Aquarius and isol-8 with the mini sub axis around the same price, and then power inspired with £500 ish regenerators. So it strikes me there is a huge gap in the market for affordable conditioning with similar devices to the Aquarius. Make one yourself if you can, go round to dealers with a badged or unbadged Aquarius and your device and try and sell them at a cheaper price. Maybe Get them made in the Far East etc. You shouldn't defeat yourself people aren't coming to you.

Oh there are, at the moment anyway, quite a few people "coming to me"... Business is on the up and up

The last thing I'm trying to do generally is undercut competitors on price. Beat them on quality is more my style as being a one man band means everything is hand built.

I don't believe in mains issues personally but I did offer to make a small reconditioner, which could double as a TT PSU, if there was enough interest about a year or so ago. No interest whatsoever IIRC. It's too big an undertaking in R&D etc to make first and then hope some interest will arise later so I was basically hoping to get at least half a dozen people saying that if I build them, and they are as described, then they would probably buy one. Not to be.

Other things I do make first and then try and build up interest... mainly things I would use myself and I'm therefore happy to do the R&D even if no one else wants one, just so I get to have one!

I've no interest in expanding or getting things made in the Far East!

[Marco]

Just noticed this quickly:

I look on the shop websites to see what customers say, so if ten people big up pmc on one shop and 10 on another , but 2 people big up an obscure brand you know which to demo.

LOL!! Applying a 'Which?' buying philosophy to quality hi-fi equipment is unlikely to get you far

Aside from that, you don't know these "people" you mention from Adam, so they could be the biggest bunch of deaf idiots on the planet, yet you'd apportion sufficient credence to their opinions, to a degree that it would so heavily influence your own buying decisions??

Sorry, that's utter madness. If you think that's a good idea, however, then good luck to you! Right, must dash.......

Marco.