Another major (presumably terrorist) incident. Now in Manchester.

[farflungstar]

If you're government cared about you then 30,000 old people wouldn't die every year from cold. Means testing has been proved to show that for whatever reasons less older people apply - so more will die. How many? 40,000? These are people. These are facts. So don't tell me they care about the odd few. There should be vigils for the mothers, fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers who die every year because it's eat or heat.

[RothwellAudio]

BTW I'm not sure if some previous posters are suggesting that this was a false flag attack designed to influence the election result but if they are I have to say I consider that to be utterly risible.

I agree.

[farflungstar]

I'm not denying there are some twisted f*ckers n the UK - everywhere - but someone is manipulating them into taking action. I don't think they know who those people are - just as we don't truly know. What happened in Manchester happens every day in those middle Eastern countries we have meddled in and then walked away from leaving a vacuum and lots of arms. We think little of it when we hear of another suicide bombing in a market in Afghanistan or wherever - it doesn't affect us - but it does.

If we want to fix it in the UK then we have to fix it in the middle east - but for some reason the West doesn't seriously want to - 200billion and much more is the reason.

If we are at war it is with our own ideology which looked at from the other side is just as twisted.

And now I'll shut up - I'm here to speak about HiFi.... I can hear the applause.

[Marco]

This is because I think whenever the differences of religious communities are made aware to the public, that it is Muslim people who blow people up (not moderates but extremists) and not christians etc in our society, the reaction of Muslim communities is to stay silent because it highlights further bigger problems. Nobody wants to have an honest debate about why it comes from the Muslim community, because of the all inclusive society we live in, liberal attitudes, and lack of common sense. Ironically this then stops the debate about how it's caused and unwittingly the all community standing against terrorism approach, probably has a counter effect.

Spot on! Ultimately, however, the whole situation stems from people (not just the Muslims) being manipulated and controlled by the agenda of the elite. Scrape past the surface and dig deep (whilst searching the Internet and accessing certain content is still within your control), and you may be truly shocked at what you find...

The telegraph is reporting today that the Imman of the mosque this bomber attended has given a statement to say he was aware of the bombers extremist views. What then happened. Was it reported to services. What did intelligence services do. I'm sure it will all come out.

Or it might all be covered up, as usual, to protect the interests of the elite and further the brainwash. No doubt, however, that the Imam in question was indeed aware of the bomber's extremist views, but said nothing for the reasons you've outlined.

I don't really subscribe to a conspiracy type view that our governments are wholly against us. Bad things go on and they act in self interest, sure, and lots of very dodgy things go on in our police forces having too much power and no 'eyes on them', but ultimately the government are working in our interests to stop terrorism. Whether it's working and enough and best financed, and is in our best interests, is another question.

Simon, it's not as straightforward and simple as them being "wholly against us" [not everyone in our governments is bad or corrupt]. One must guard against such simplistic thinking of 'they're all out to get us', as it impedes the insight needed to get to the truth.

However, you have to grasp the concept that governments are ultimately controlled by the super-rich, often in the most insidious of ways, and so their ultimate actions are always steered in favour of protecting the former's best interests - and that can be achieved either knowingly or unknowingly by those responsible for making the key decisions, thus driving the agenda and furthering the process of making the elite, even richer and more powerful, to its ultimate end.

Marco.

[Marco]

If we want to fix it in the UK then we have to fix it in the middle east - but for some reason the West doesn't seriously want to - 200billion and much more is the reason.

Indeed... Money [and with it control and power] is at the root of what this is *ultimately* all about.

Don't shut up, as your erudite views are welcome, and this is after all the off-topic section!

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

I'm not denying there are some twisted f*ckers n the UK - everywhere - but someone is manipulating them into taking action. I don't think they know who those people are - just as we don't truly know. What happened in Manchester happens every day in those middle Eastern countries we have meddled in and then walked away from leaving a vacuum and lots of arms. We think little of it when we hear of another suicide bombing in a market in Afghanistan or wherever - it doesn't affect us - but it does.

If we want to fix it in the UK then we have to fix it in the middle east - but for some reason the West doesn't seriously want to - 200billion and much more is the reason.

If we are at war it is with our own ideology which looked at from the other side is just as twisted.

And now I'll shut up - I'm here to speak about HiFi.... I can hear the applause.

Well said.

Ultimately this is all our own fault... We started illegal wars in the Middle East in order to protect oil supplies (in order to take control of other peoples oil would be more accurate) and in the process killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims, destabilised the regimes that had been keeping a lid on tribal and religious tensions and paved the way for the creation of Al Qaeda and ISIS. Remember that for every innocent Westerner killed in terrorist atrocities such as in Manchester there are probably 500 Muslims killed by Western armed forces.... Do you really expect them not to want revenge? If the boot were on the other foot would you not want revenge?

[Dynamics]

I don't see it Marco as being a government pandering to the elite, to the effect of how that can or can't impact on what gets done or not done, or who is responsible in the aftermath of this tradegy or if anyone in government has been responsible for any intelligence service inactivity. This is because politics will draw people according to the public views and the media have a huge part to play in that. They will find out if government fault is at part e.g. Services not having resources, a bungled investigation to the bomber etc. Pandering to elite happens.

I see it more as a government not admitting to its inefficiency and corruptability. An organisation which effectively governs itself will be corrupt. It goes deep when we trust police and intelligence services and have no idea what they do or overlook etc. We see this corruptibility in government with expense scandals and everyday with police etc. But it's doubtful what this really has to do with the issue at question at the moment because it's early days, the real question is how we prevent these terrorist attacks.

I'm absolutely sure it comes from the public, insisting laws deal with people who turn a blind eye to terrorists and extreme views, and greater societal tackling of the problem. If I talk up to police in the knowledge of extremists, if I were a Muslim and these nutters were in my community circle, and so does everyone else, it's much more powerful than the pokey police and intelligence services with paltry budgets. I'd prefer more power in societies hands in this kind of way. They could have gone round and they'd have intelligence on this bomber.

I also wonder what the hell is anyone 23 years old going to visit Syria and returning to bomb people in Manchester. Services knew this Syria visit as reported today. He is hardly going there for a holiday, and he should have vans and surveillance outside his house, phones tapped, the whole caboodle. What the hell are we doing letting hate preachers go round the country encouraging terrorism, happening just last year. I can find a hate preach video on you tube encouraging terrorism in about a minute. I'm talking about a British Muslim hate preacher and video in the uk.

[Marco]

Can you do that again please, Simon, this time with paragraphs? Just makes it so MUCH easier to read. Ta!

Marco.

[Marco]

Well said.

Ultimately this is all our own fault... We started illegal wars in the Middle East in order to protect oil supplies (in order to take control of other peoples oil would be more accurate) and in the process killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims, destabilised the regimes that had been keeping a lid on tribal and religious tensions and paved the way for the creation of Al Qaeda and ISIS. Remember that for every innocent Westerner killed in terrorist atrocities such as in Manchester there are probably 500 Muslims killed by Western armed forces.... Do you really expect them not to want revenge? If the boot were on the other foot would you not want revenge?

An uncomfortable and unpalatable way of looking at the situation, Jez, but ultimately one that contains much truth. Of course, that doesn't in any way justify or condone their heinous actions.

Marco.

[Dynamics]

Well said.

Ultimately this is all our own fault... We started illegal wars in the Middle East in order to protect oil supplies (in order to take control of other peoples oil would be more accurate) and in the process killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims, destabilised the regimes that had been keeping a lid on tribal and religious tensions and paved the way for the creation of Al Qaeda and ISIS. Remember that for every innocent Westerner killed in terrorist atrocities such as in Manchester there are probably 500 Muslims killed by Western armed forces.... Do you really expect them not to want revenge? If the boot were on the other foot would you not want revenge?

I'm sorry but I've got to pull you up on this because this is so terribly ill informed and just wrong. There has been Islamic extremism since the beginning of Islam. In a historical context certainly. Islam has a violent religious element, whilst people live with it as moderates too.

Also sadaam hussein killed inordinately more muslims than any democratic western forces have killed innocent muslims in friendly fire. He killed more muslims than anyone else in the late 20th century. That's why we went in to get him out. I always believed it right for removal on a regime change basis therefore, whilst the wmd issue was a political uk smokescreen. The Americans wanted him out for regime change. This was to stop these heinous crimes and try and institute democracy.

Isis are killing huge numbers of innocent people e.g. The Yazidi communities, raping and murdering people. Thousands of people.

There are not 500 people against 1. This I'm afraid is not true. They are killing muslims themselves for goodness sake. Isis are just barbaric, and these communities deserve the full intervention of our power and governments to eradicate Isis. Just like our intervention in Kosovo which also protected Muslim people and was a great success / campaign.

This issue is not to be conflated with how a twenty year old British man can decide to kill his own citizens at pop concert, far worse children. It has absolutely nothing to do with this above seperate forces involvement. If this bomber supports a cause for legitimate ends, which is so far beyond comprehension when killing people, how do you suppose he can do so when that same cause is also killing innocent muslims in Syria and Iraq etc.