Another major (presumably terrorist) incident. Now in Manchester.

[Dynamics]

1) Hitler wasn't a Christian, many Christians went to the concentration camps. He may have been baptised a Christian at birth but he didn't rule as a Christian leader or practice any recognised form of Christianity, indeed he murdered those Christians who stood on Christian principles against his rule.

2) You totally miss the point - again. So-called Christians did indeed commit atrocities in the deep south or the American west but this is NOT sanctioned in the Christian religion. Muslim terrorists quote the Koran in their killings of innocent people.

It's not hypocrisy to make the distinction - and frankly Adey you are either being either a bit thick here or deliberately ignoring the facts to suit your prejudices.

I'm with you 100 percent Tom as you one of only a few talking sense in this thread. Btw to correct the inaccuracy before, hitler was not an atheist, but a Roman Catholic, and whatever the academics of that, Hitler did not take his horrible deeds in the name of religion. And even if he was an atheist there is not a non religious atheist text that dictates how people are dealt with in society. E.g. Put to death. There very much is in Islam and it's practises by Islamic countries and in its form, it was practised by this uk bomber.

See attached

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/p.../apostasy.aspx

[farflungstar]

No, im just bring open minded and seeing that this kind of shit isn't new. The conquistadors etc did it in the name of religion - religion is the thread throughout whatever distinctions you want to draw. I'm also saying that evil exists everywhere - in the home of those poor 80 year olds who got stabbed to death yesterday by some sicko and those Coptic Christian kids who got blown up the other day.

Evil is evil, and whether Jewish or not some idiots do actually believe the old testament and treat people horrendously, like blowing up gay people in a club.

Fanaticism will always exist in religion - i haven't read the Koran but im assuming you have so I can't comment. However if what you said was true then every Muslim in the UK would be running around with.
Meat cleavers.

I've known many Muslims and they have been as normal as anyone else.

This does not mean tom that we do not have a problem - but I think you have to ask how they are armed and trained - there are no munitions factories Libya or the majority of the middle East. Russia, America? I'm not saying they are sold direct - but they get there somehow - this is what we need to look at. If They have spears they can do fuck all....

[Dynamics]

No, im just bring open minded and seeing that this kind of shit isn't new. The conquistadors etc did it in the name of religion - religion is the thread throughout whatever distinctions you want to draw. I'm also saying that evil exists everywhere - in the home of those poor 80 year olds who got stabbed to death yesterday by some sicko and those Coptic Christian kids who got blown up the other day.

Evil is evil, and whether Jewish or not some idiots do actually believe the old testament and treat people horrendously, like blowing up gay people in a club.

Fanaticism will always exist in religion - i haven't read the Koran but im assuming you have so I can't comment. However if what you said was true then every Muslim in the UK would be running around with.
Meat cleavers.

I've known many Muslims and they have been as normal as anyone else.

This does not mean tom that we do not have a problem - but I think you have to ask how they are armed and trained - there are no munitions factories Libya or the majority of the middle East. Russia, America? I'm not saying they are sold direct - but they get there somehow - this is what we need to look at. If They have spears they can do fuck all....

No this isn't true at all.

The problem we have is Islamic terrorism, let's concentrate on that. Evil is evil but that's another question.

No not every one with a meat clever because your argument doesn't take account of the sense of the matter. And the sense these moderates have is something they live in, this thing they live in is called society. Which means they go to prison if they kill someone for leaving a religion, which our society tolerates be it Christian, Muslim, or whatever. That means they miss their children etc. They choose to ignore that aspect of the religion to be in a society as decent moderate people.

I know muslims too and they agree with me on lots of things, but this isn't about whether they are normal. It's about some of them using the distorted form of Islam which is the actual text e.g. Apostecy, to kill. This is what happened with this bomber. He did it because he thought he would be a martyr. I could find you the actual wording in the Koran.

But the point is the distorted form. Also it happens in Muslim countries that don't have the society we have, with human rights abuses for killing people for what we would consider minor things under the law dictated by the Koran. These people can visit these countries then come here as British cirizens.

They don't have spears they have acetone peroxide bombs which can be made quite crudely and kill lots of people.

Please read around this subject.

[farflungstar]

So the Koran is not the problem then? In earlier posts it's been said that it's full of murder and beheading unlike the Bible. Ok im going.

[montesquieu]

No, im just bring open minded and seeing that this kind of shit isn't new. The conquistadors etc did it in the name of religion - religion is the thread throughout whatever distinctions you want to draw. I'm also saying that evil exists everywhere - in the home of those poor 80 year olds who got stabbed to death yesterday by some sicko and those Coptic Christian kids who got blown up the other day.

Evil is evil, and whether Jewish or not some idiots do actually believe the old testament and treat people horrendously, like blowing up gay people in a club.

Fanaticism will always exist in religion - i haven't read the Koran but im assuming you have so I can't comment. However if what you said was true then every Muslim in the UK would be running around with.
Meat cleavers.

I've known many Muslims and they have been as normal as anyone else.

This does not mean tom that we do not have a problem - but I think you have to ask how they are armed and trained - there are no munitions factories Libya or the majority of the middle East. Russia, America? I'm not saying they are sold direct - but they get there somehow - this is what we need to look at. If They have spears they can do fuck all....

Sorry Adey once again you (deliberately?) miss the point.

I'm not sticking up for religion at all, or religious people. Simply pointing to the fact that Muslim fanatics have sanction for their actions in their holy book, whereas evildoers from a Christian background don't.

The Conquistadors did it for money and glory. Which you well know.

I also have Musilim friends and been to mosques in various countries, not least the big one in Glasgow. There are many schools of Musilm thought that are perfectly capable of handling the difficult passages in the Koran in an intelligent and non-violent way perfectly compatible with a modern pluralist world.

The difference I'm calling your attention to is that the words are there in Islam, in a way that they aren't in Christianity. Relatively mainstream voices in Islam support extremism in a way that no mainstream Christian does. This is a genuine problem in a terrorism context - there is backing for Islamist violence that is a major difficulty.

To try and tar all with the same brush is lazy thinking and not helpful when it comes to resolving the problem.

[Dynamics]

And commentators have asked many muslims in positions of seniority in their faith, what their view is on some parts of Islam regarding death for minor crimes as dictated by the Koran, and they won't condemn this interpretation in countries where it's permitted. How can they report fundamentalists they come across when they hold such bad view. You only have to you tube the big questions with Douglas Murray, Adam Deen, etc to see what I mean. Choudhary was doing it on the BBC for years but he was at the same time indoctrinating muslims.

[Dynamics]

Sorry Adey once again you (deliberately?) miss the point.

I'm not sticking up for religion at all, or religious people. Simply pointing to the fact that Muslim fanatics have sanction for their actions in their holy book, whereas evildoers from a Christian background don't.

The Conquistadors did it for money and glory. Which you well know.

I also have Musilim friends and been to mosques in various countries, not least the big one in Glasgow. There are many schools of Musilm thought that are perfectly capable of handling the difficult passages in the Koran in an intelligent and non-violent way perfectly compatible with a modern pluralist world.

The difference I'm calling your attention to is that the words are there in Islam, in a way that they aren't in Christianity. Relatively mainstream voices in Islam support extremism in a way that no mainstream Christian does. This is a genuine problem in a terrorism context - there is backing for Islamist violence that is a major difficulty.

To try and tar all with the same brush is lazy thinking and not helpful when it comes to resolving the problem.

Absolutely agreed, this is the problem. Uk muslims should agree and denounce parts of the Koran and habiths that incite violence and contrary our own society norms and views. How about honour killings, isn't that made religious and codified in the Koran too. Probably.

[LC1979]

Let it not be said that Muslims didn’t cooperate with the authorities to report Abedi. Abedi flew a black Jihadi flag out of his window in Manchester. He was banned from his mosque. His Imam reported him. His family reported him. His friends reported him. He wasn’t a lone wolf – he was a known wolf.

But MI5 didn’t stop him.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7757726.html

[Dynamics]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7757726.html

I agree with you spending on counter terrorism is probably not enough. And it surprises me when they spend billions on foreign aid, the rights of wrongs of that a seperate question, but some of the aid money could be used towards defence in an increasing terrorist world. But we don't know the facts fully yet around abedi and his cell, around whether security forces could or couldn't do things on some of these reports, and what they could do and whether, even if they had 100 times the budget if it would have made a difference to stoping the bombing

This article is very much putting lower budget per capita spending on anti terror in the uk, against the Americans, and the number of staff on each case, to say it's not enough. What they also don't say is how many of the 3000 on the list are active. I'm sure the details will come out in the press properly against the
Secutory services and them being inadequate, but be circumspect, as this is not great information yet, and we shouldn't believe this yet. Surprised it came from the independent but they all have an angle nowadays.

[struth]

Garbage taken out