Another major (presumably terrorist) incident. Now in Manchester.

[Macca]

I'm glad to hear it! You seemed to be saying that it matters not how many foreigners are killed, regimes changed, wars started etc so long as we get our oil and remain a wealthy elite of "Westerners"...

That is how the western governments look at it, because as I said earlier it is not the purpose of government to 'care' but to provide security and stability. They will take any necessary steps to do that. It's absolute pragmatism.

If there was a problem with oil supplies and the price skyrocketed, instant economic depression in the West. Unemployment, power and fuel shortages, blackouts, rationing and eventually rioting and anarchy. So it isn't as simple as just saying it is wrong to safeguard the oil, so let's stop doing it, because that will have terrible consequences of its own.

Now if you have a solution to that very real problem that does not involve the collapse of western civilisation I am all ears.

[Marco]

Whilst I'll partially agree on his level of intellectual competence etc (he's no Enoch Powell, Tony Benn or George Galloway when it comes to brains and oratory skills but he's hardly thick either...), he is that rare and special thing... an honest politician who CARES and puts people before profit

Mmm... Is there *really* such a thing?? I do agree, however, that he portrays a convincing illusion of such. Regardless, I'd have him in No10, like a shot, at the expense of May the Witch!

Putting people before, not profit (which in the right context is fine), but rather gratuitous greed, power and control, however, is definitely something we need to see MUCH MORE of in politics!!



Marco.

[Marco]

That is how the western governments look at it, because as I said earlier it is not the purpose of government to 'care' but to provide security and stability.

You keep going on about this "security and stability", Martin, as if we should all be eternally grateful. Being caring is an inherent trait of any decent human being, and more genuinely decent human beings is what's needed in politics!

We only enjoy "security and stability" at its most basic level (and the more we arrogantly meddle in the affairs of other countries, the less 'secure' we'll be).

The above is indeed a privilege we enjoy from living in the west, but one could argue, with some conviction, that the world would be a helluva lot safer and secure, if governments didn't continually start wars to create wealth for those who own the vast majority of arms.

The ordinary people (you and I) simply want to 'make love, not war', and get on with one another in peace, regardless of class or race, which is generally what happens in real life in the civilised world, minus the intrusion of governments!!

Marco.

[pgarrish]

I'm upset about this, my daughter was friends with the little girl that died, so it's hit close to home.... I started writing a big rant about everything from the Knights Templar to Haliburton.... None of it matters. the problem is we think differently to the East and we won't f**ing well leave them alone to live how they want. There is simply too much money to be made going to war and the US (and the UK, but mainly the US, we just follow them) is totally and utterly driven by $$$

May will use this to take away even more rights and freedoms, whilst taking the money from the front line where they can protect us
Corbyn has (to me) a much more principled view, but against the psychopaths that run the world, he will get (I fear) chewed up and spat out because he simply can't conceive how twisted they are.

The only thing most of us can do is to carry on as if nothing has happened. Live our lives in our way and, by doing that, give a big f-u to the sick few that think that blowing up kids advances their cause.


The positive things from Monday are the way so many people (from the homeless chaps who ran in to help to the cabbies who travelled from miles away to take people home) did what they could to help. THAT is what we need to focus on.

[farflungstar]

That is how the western governments look at it, because as I said earlier it is not the purpose of government to 'care' but to provide security and stability. They will take any necessary steps to do that. It's absolute pragmatism.

If there was a problem with oil supplies and the price skyrocketed, instant economic depression in the West. Unemployment, power and fuel shortages, blackouts, rationing and eventually rioting and anarchy. So it isn't as simple as just saying it is wrong to safeguard the oil, so let's stop doing it, because that will have terrible consequences of its own.

Now if you have a solution to that very real problem that does not involve the collapse of western civilisation I am all ears.

Including murdering their own people in the name of stability and security - or is that too preposterous?

[Arkless Electronics]

Hear, hear!!



You and me both, Jez, although I'd pish on it too, then set it on fire, just to be sure!

In terms of your last bit, unfortunately that appears to be exactly what Martin thinks we should all be grateful for......

Oh, along with the "security and safety" we apparently all enjoy. Tell that to the families of the victims of the Manchester bombing. I'm sure the dead all felt 'safe and secure' beforehand.....

Marco.

As to your last paragraph... "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin.

Liberté, égalité, fraternité + Peace and Love

[Macca]

The ordinary people (you and I) simply want to 'make love, not war', and get on with one another in peace, which is generally what happens in real life, minus the intrusion of governments!!

Marco.

It is what happens in real life in western democracies. Because they have strong and stable government. It would be a lot less easy to get on with one another in peace in a state of anarchy. Fact is by sheer accident of birth we got to live in one of the most peaceful, law-abiding and prosperous countries in the world. The reason it is like that is not (I would argue) the result of happy chance but of 1000 years of Establishment. An Establishment that later extended itself to Australia, America, and Canada as well. Again all top countries to hit in the birth lottery. Chance?

Okay so the Establishment has corruption and nepotism and rips us off. They are the negatives. Can you have the positives without any negatives? No, not in the real world, so it is a trade-off I accept. Could we reduce the negatives? Yes. But not easily.

[Arkless Electronics]

I'm upset about this, my daughter was friends with the little girl that died, so it's hit close to home.... I started writing a big rant about everything from the Knights Templar to Haliburton.... None of it matters. the problem is we think differently to the East and we won't f**ing well leave them alone to live how they want. There is simply too much money to be made going to war and the US (and the UK, but mainly the US, we just follow them) is totally and utterly driven by $$$

May will use this to take away even more rights and freedoms, whilst taking the money from the front line where they can protect us
Corbyn has (to me) a much more principled view, but against the psychopaths that run the world, he will get (I fear) chewed up and spat out because he simply can't conceive how twisted they are.

The only thing most of us can do is to carry on as if nothing has happened. Live our lives in our way and, by doing that, give a big f-u to the sick few that think that blowing up kids advances their cause.


The positive things from Monday are the way so many people (from the homeless chaps who ran in to help to the cabbies who travelled from miles away to take people home) did what they could to help. THAT is what we need to focus on.

+1 Well said. Sorry to hear that this atrocity has taken a friend of your daughters.

[Arkless Electronics]

It is what happens in real life in western democracies. Because they have strong and stable government. It would be a lot less easy to get on with one another in peace in a state of anarchy. Fact is by sheer accident of birth we got to live in one of the most peaceful, law-abiding and prosperous countries in the world. The reason it is like that is not (I would argue) the result of happy chance but of 1000 years of Establishment. An Establishment that later extended itself to Australia, America, and Canada as well. Again all top countries to hit in the birth lottery. Chance?

Okay so the Establishment has corruption and nepotism and rips us off. They are the negatives. Can you have the positives without any negatives? No, not in the real world, so it is a trade-off I accept. Could we reduce the negatives? Yes. But not easily.

I'm glad I didn't have a mouthful of coffee to blurt out when I read that! You can not be serious!!?? Peaceful??? Expanded it's wonders to the colonies?

I'll raise you the Crimean war, the Napoleonic wars, the civil war, the war of the roses, Korea and on to the war of Jenkin's ear, slavery, the east indies etc etc etc.

Go and ask the Inuit, The Iroquois, The Sioux, The Aborigines, The Maori etc etc how much they loved their peace loving English/Western pals coming over to "help" them!

[southall-1998]

My best description of Theresa May. ''Tall, lanky, ugly shemale!!!''

S.