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Thread: Another major (presumably terrorist) incident. Now in Manchester.

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    Well said.

    Ultimately this is all our own fault... We started illegal wars in the Middle East in order to protect oil supplies (in order to take control of other peoples oil would be more accurate) and in the process killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims, destabilised the regimes that had been keeping a lid on tribal and religious tensions and paved the way for the creation of Al Qaeda and ISIS. Remember that for every innocent Westerner killed in terrorist atrocities such as in Manchester there are probably 500 Muslims killed by Western armed forces.... Do you really expect them not to want revenge? If the boot were on the other foot would you not want revenge?
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  2. #52
    Join Date: Feb 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    BTW I'm not sure if some previous posters are suggesting that this was a false flag attack designed to influence the election result but if they are I have to say I consider that to be utterly risible.
    That's your prerogative, and I completely understand and respect that view. I only wish I could share it.

    I wouldn't wish to call this out as a false flag with so little evidence. And what constitutes a FF anyway? Complete orchestration by the secret services, or an even less accountable subgroup therein? Colluding and actively supporting or directing an attacker? Or knowing of a planned attack and allowing it to occur at a certain time by manipulating events in subtle ways?

    Of course, these are in ascending order of plausibility. If you cannot fathom that any such thing could occur in the UK I would encourage you to really examine why you feel it is so impossible.

    Wars have always been waged for the advantage of the elites, and many innocent lives sacrificed for the securing of wealth and power. Other justifications were created for the purposes of motivating the masses, naturally. It is ever the same. Innocent lives sacrificed for the greater good (of the powerful).

    Did you notice the groundswell of support Jeremy Corbyn was mobilising, especially among the young. Noticed what an anti-war pacifist he is? What would the implications be if he were to be the PM of the UK?

    If you don't​ think that the military-industrial complex/ deep state/ whatever you want to call it has a vested interest in this election (or don't believe that such a thing exists) and that they wouldn't be prepared to meddle in a bit of terrorism to further their interests (as they do on a regular basis in the ME, I believe, actively fostering groups such as AlQaeda and ISIS) then there is clearly very little that I or anyone else could say that might make you think twice about it being "utterly risible".

    Again, I can't say what happened was 100% one thing or another, but to ignore the possibility is to deny the reality of the world we live in, unfortunately.

  3. #53
    Join Date: Feb 2017

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    News are reporting he was the mule and the imman at the mosque he went too has said he was radicalised in 2011. This beggars belief that nothing was done to check him.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by LC1979 View Post
    That's your prerogative, and I completely understand and respect that view. I only wish I could share it.

    I wouldn't wish to call this out as a false flag with so little evidence. And what constitutes a FF anyway? Complete orchestration by the secret services, or an even less accountable subgroup therein? Colluding and actively supporting or directing an attacker? Or knowing of a planned attack and allowing it to occur at a certain time by manipulating events in subtle ways?

    Of course, these are in ascending order of plausibility. If you cannot fathom that any such thing could occur in the UK I would encourage you to really examine why you feel it is so impossible.

    Wars have always been waged for the advantage of the elites, and many innocent lives sacrificed for the securing of wealth and power. Other justifications were created for the purposes of motivating the masses, naturally. It is ever the same. Innocent lives sacrificed for the greater good (of the powerful).

    Did you notice the groundswell of support Jeremy Corbyn was mobilising, especially among the young. Noticed what an anti-war pacifist he is? What would the implications be if he were to be the PM of the UK?

    If you don't​ think that the military-industrial complex/ deep state/ whatever you want to call it has a vested interest in this election (or don't believe that such a thing exists) and that they wouldn't be prepared to meddle in a bit of terrorism to further their interests (as they do on a regular basis in the ME, I believe, actively fostering groups such as AlQaeda and ISIS) then there is clearly very little that I or anyone else could say that might make you think twice about it being "utterly risible".

    Again, I can't say what happened was 100% one thing or another, but to ignore the possibility is to deny the reality of the world we live in, unfortunately.
    No because this has zero credibility i.e. conspiracy theories. I can cast out the possibility aliens live in my flat with me, because I haven't seen any at home with me.

  5. #55
    Join Date: Feb 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamics View Post
    News are reporting he was the mule and the imman at the mosque he went too has said he was radicalised in 2011. This beggars belief that nothing was done to check him
    .
    It was. He 'was known'. The security services likely knew more about his movements than his own mother. You don't just get on a plane to Libya and come back to the UK without it being well known! He was just a kid, and likely very easy to manipulate.

  6. #56
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    An unpalatable way of looking at the situation, Jez, but ultimately one that contains much truth.

    Marco.
    I'm afraid there is a prevalent attitude in the west that foreigners are "worth less" than us, and that by the time these foreigners we're talking about are Arabs, of different appearance, culture, religion etc they are so worthless that it doesn't even cause anyone to look up from their breakfast when they hear of yet another suicide bombing in Iraq, or a USA bombing mission gone wrong and wiped out 150 people at a wedding etc. A true story to illustrate this: I was in a house of, well I suppose "chav" types and the news came on the TV. The lead story was of some atrocity in somewhere like Iraq and over 400 were dead... the "lady of the house" refused to turn up the TV as it was apparently " a load of fucking shite".... at the end of the news we came to the local news... as a story started about a child 2 miles away being bitten on the leg by a stray dog the volume went right up and we were told "STFU this is important I want to listen to this!". So there you go.. to British thicko Daily Mair reading, UKIP voting scum a local white British girl getting bitten by a dog is infinitely more important than the lives of 400 Iraqis being lost. Mad dogs and English woman...

    Obviously I abhor and condemn murder and terrorism wherever it occurs.. and to who ever it occurs.. But people in "The West" are brainwashed to think that it's somehow OK for us to murder foreigners with impunity... but how dare they defend themselves against us! Who the hell do they think they are! etc etc... and if they take revenge then they are evil incarnate and worse than Satan etc...

    The situation with Iran and N. Korea is a case in point. No country is going to start a nuclear war due to mutually assured destruction. However, "The West" (USA more accurately) feigns moral indignation and outrage because these country's refuse to leave themselves undefended and liable to be swatted like a fly by The West at any time/for any reason of The West's choosing! The arrogance and hypocrisy almost requires a new species of hyperbole...
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  7. #57
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    most things are possible, even if unlikely. ..but no proof so I wont be going down that route.... I'm not big on coincidence either tho. Best or should say worst option would be someone letting it happen I guess, but its an awful cross to bear. Churchill did it during the war on more than one occasion of course so its not unheard of.
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  8. #58
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamics View Post
    I don't really subscribe to a conspiracy type view that our governments are wholly against us. Bad things go on and they act in self interest, sure, and lots of very dodgy things go on in our police forces having too much power and no 'eyes on them', but ultimately the government are working in our interests to stop terrorism. Whether it's working and enough and best financed, and is in our best interests, is another question.

    But it strikes me the rhetoric that we 'stand together against terrorism' as is seen being propagated in Manchester, in other words all different religions and communities have the same stance against it, rather than having the opposite effect of making Muslim communities report those with concerning extremist views, perversely actually it does the opposite in emboldening these communities to stay silent in not reporting such people. This is because I think whenever the differences of religious communities are made aware to the public, that it is Muslim people who blow people up (not moderates but extremists) and not christians etc in our society, the reaction of Muslim communities is to stay silent because it highlights further bigger problems. Nobody wants to have an honest debate about why it comes from the Muslim community, because of the all inclusive society we live in, liberal attitudes, and lack of common sense. Ironically this then stops the debate about how it's caused and unwittingly the all community standing against terrorism approach, probably has a counter effect.

    The telegraph is reporting today that the Imman of the mosque this bomber attended has given a statement to say he was aware of the bombers extremist views. What then happened. Was it reported to services. What did intelligence services do. I'm sure it will all come out. Im not making a sensationalist point but the likelihood is many moderate people knew about this guys views.
    I'm afraid I have a HUGE problem with anyone who thinks the word "Liberal" can have ANY pejorative connotations.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    I'm afraid there is a prevalent attitude in the west that foreigners are "worth less" than us, and that by the time these foreigners we're talking about are Arabs, of different appearance, culture, religion etc they are so worthless that it doesn't even cause anyone to look up from their breakfast when they hear of yet another suicide bombing in Iraq, or a USA bombing mission gone wrong and wiped out 150 people at a wedding etc. A true story to illustrate this: I was in a house of, well I suppose "chav" types and the news came on the TV. The lead story was of some atrocity in somewhere like Iraq and over 400 were dead... the "lady of the house" refused to turn up the TV as it was apparently " a load of fucking shite".... at the end of the news we came to the local news... as a story started about a child 2 miles away being bitten on the leg by a stray dog the volume went right up and we were told "STFU this is important I want to listen to this!". So there you go.. to British thicko Daily Mair reading, UKIP voting scum a local white British girl getting bitten by a dog is infinitely more important than the lives of 400 Iraqis being lost. Mad dogs and English woman...

    Obviously I abhor and condemn murder and terrorism wherever it occurs.. and to who ever it occurs.. But people in "The West" are brainwashed to think that it's somehow OK for us to murder foreigners with impunity... but how dare they defend themselves against us! Who the hell do they think they are! etc etc... and if they take revenge then they are evil incarnate and worse than Satan etc...

    The situation with Iran and N. Korea is a case in point. No country is going to start a nuclear war due to mutually assured destruction. However, "The West" (USA more accurately) feigns moral indignation and outrage because these country's refuse to leave themselves undefended and liable to be swatted like a fly by The West at any time/for any reason of The West's choosing! The arrogance and hypocrisy almost requires a new species of hyperbole...
    It well be that some people are decensitised to news of suicide bombings but I'm not any less horrified when I watch and read that news. I'd dispair if other people ignore it but what I think you are talking about is un-educated people who don't want to understand what goes on in the world.

    I think your points about our governments murdering foreigners with impunity is ill thought out without all the information. It's well known for instance that sadaam hussein killed, over his rule, infinitely more people than foreign forces in the Iraq conflict - his killing of the Kurds, wars with Iran, torturing of citizens, imprisoned children, mass graves. The list went on. We were doing it for regime change to stop this happening, or certainly the Americans were as the main drive. Or even if you think the Americans had other reasons, the effect by going in was to do it for this reason.

    But the biggest problem I have with your line of thinking is in your last para. Wars to institute regime change, are a last resort, but the greater good to life has to be looked at. But that's not quite the point, as you say how dare they retaliate, but we are taking about Isis and al quaeda here. These people kill fellow muslims in suicide bombings , yazidis etc, so I have a problem that you use a line of saying they are defending themselves. They are killing people of their own faith.

    There is nothing therefore for someone to draw a line of similarity to say because our governments have inadvertently killed muslims in foreign wars, it somehow allows people to think its unsurprising for terrorists, who kill their own people both overseas and in the uk, can have any level of legitimacy or sympathy or whatever word you want to use. To use any such explanation in this way is basically the same thing and legitimises terrorism for those that would do it, it's what that scumbag choudhary was doing on tv all the time before he was jailed. We should all have an attitude as British citizens that it's a completely different thing for a democratically elected government to make decisions in intervention in wars, to those that people would take action with no democracy, to kill people with zero mandate. It's a totally different thing.

    These Isis fighters aren't some form of disgruntled people that are fighting in retaliation of inadvertent actions against muslims, by western forces, but are twisted ill educated religious people jumping on the back of political ideals to pedal their horrible agenda and caliphate state. That's absolutely it.

    The issue of North Korea is quite different for this thread.

  10. #60
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by walpurgis View Post
    we are at war! And, under attack from an enemy hiding in plain sight.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's a war we can't win (on our terms) because our belief structures are too different.

    How do you 'win' a war when the opposition puts no value to life?

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