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Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 159
I'm Luke.
That's your prerogative, and I completely understand and respect that view. I only wish I could share it.
I wouldn't wish to call this out as a false flag with so little evidence. And what constitutes a FF anyway? Complete orchestration by the secret services, or an even less accountable subgroup therein? Colluding and actively supporting or directing an attacker? Or knowing of a planned attack and allowing it to occur at a certain time by manipulating events in subtle ways?
Of course, these are in ascending order of plausibility. If you cannot fathom that any such thing could occur in the UK I would encourage you to really examine why you feel it is so impossible.
Wars have always been waged for the advantage of the elites, and many innocent lives sacrificed for the securing of wealth and power. Other justifications were created for the purposes of motivating the masses, naturally. It is ever the same. Innocent lives sacrificed for the greater good (of the powerful).
Did you notice the groundswell of support Jeremy Corbyn was mobilising, especially among the young. Noticed what an anti-war pacifist he is? What would the implications be if he were to be the PM of the UK?
If you don't think that the military-industrial complex/ deep state/ whatever you want to call it has a vested interest in this election (or don't believe that such a thing exists) and that they wouldn't be prepared to meddle in a bit of terrorism to further their interests (as they do on a regular basis in the ME, I believe, actively fostering groups such as AlQaeda and ISIS) then there is clearly very little that I or anyone else could say that might make you think twice about it being "utterly risible".
Again, I can't say what happened was 100% one thing or another, but to ignore the possibility is to deny the reality of the world we live in, unfortunately.
Location: Sussex
Posts: 324
I'm Simon.
News are reporting he was the mule and the imman at the mosque he went too has said he was radicalised in 2011. This beggars belief that nothing was done to check him.
Location: Sussex
Posts: 324
I'm Simon.
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 159
I'm Luke.
I'm afraid there is a prevalent attitude in the west that foreigners are "worth less" than us, and that by the time these foreigners we're talking about are Arabs, of different appearance, culture, religion etc they are so worthless that it doesn't even cause anyone to look up from their breakfast when they hear of yet another suicide bombing in Iraq, or a USA bombing mission gone wrong and wiped out 150 people at a wedding etc. A true story to illustrate this: I was in a house of, well I suppose "chav" types and the news came on the TV. The lead story was of some atrocity in somewhere like Iraq and over 400 were dead... the "lady of the house" refused to turn up the TV as it was apparently " a load of fucking shite".... at the end of the news we came to the local news... as a story started about a child 2 miles away being bitten on the leg by a stray dog the volume went right up and we were told "STFU this is important I want to listen to this!". So there you go.. to British thicko Daily Mair reading, UKIP voting scum a local white British girl getting bitten by a dog is infinitely more important than the lives of 400 Iraqis being lost. Mad dogs and English woman...
Obviously I abhor and condemn murder and terrorism wherever it occurs.. and to who ever it occurs.. But people in "The West" are brainwashed to think that it's somehow OK for us to murder foreigners with impunity... but how dare they defend themselves against us! Who the hell do they think they are! etc etc... and if they take revenge then they are evil incarnate and worse than Satan etc...
The situation with Iran and N. Korea is a case in point. No country is going to start a nuclear war due to mutually assured destruction. However, "The West" (USA more accurately) feigns moral indignation and outrage because these country's refuse to leave themselves undefended and liable to be swatted like a fly by The West at any time/for any reason of The West's choosing! The arrogance and hypocrisy almost requires a new species of hyperbole...
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most things are possible, even if unlikely. ..but no proof so I wont be going down that route.... I'm not big on coincidence either tho. Best or should say worst option would be someone letting it happen I guess, but its an awful cross to bear. Churchill did it during the war on more than one occasion of course so its not unheard of.
Regards,
Grant .... ؠ ......Don't be such a big girl's blouse
I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work.... ..... ...... ...... ................... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
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“Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test. It is the glory of Lincoln that, having almost absolute power, he never abused it, except on the side of mercy".
“You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police ... yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts: words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home -- all the more powerful because forbidden -- terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic.”
"You don't have free will. You have the appearance of free will.”
“There's a war out there, old friend. A world war. And it's not about who's got the most bullets. It's about who controls the information. What we see and hear, how we work, what we think... it's all about the information!”
***SMILE, BE HAPPY***
Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)
Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco
Location: Sussex
Posts: 324
I'm Simon.
It well be that some people are decensitised to news of suicide bombings but I'm not any less horrified when I watch and read that news. I'd dispair if other people ignore it but what I think you are talking about is un-educated people who don't want to understand what goes on in the world.
I think your points about our governments murdering foreigners with impunity is ill thought out without all the information. It's well known for instance that sadaam hussein killed, over his rule, infinitely more people than foreign forces in the Iraq conflict - his killing of the Kurds, wars with Iran, torturing of citizens, imprisoned children, mass graves. The list went on. We were doing it for regime change to stop this happening, or certainly the Americans were as the main drive. Or even if you think the Americans had other reasons, the effect by going in was to do it for this reason.
But the biggest problem I have with your line of thinking is in your last para. Wars to institute regime change, are a last resort, but the greater good to life has to be looked at. But that's not quite the point, as you say how dare they retaliate, but we are taking about Isis and al quaeda here. These people kill fellow muslims in suicide bombings , yazidis etc, so I have a problem that you use a line of saying they are defending themselves. They are killing people of their own faith.
There is nothing therefore for someone to draw a line of similarity to say because our governments have inadvertently killed muslims in foreign wars, it somehow allows people to think its unsurprising for terrorists, who kill their own people both overseas and in the uk, can have any level of legitimacy or sympathy or whatever word you want to use. To use any such explanation in this way is basically the same thing and legitimises terrorism for those that would do it, it's what that scumbag choudhary was doing on tv all the time before he was jailed. We should all have an attitude as British citizens that it's a completely different thing for a democratically elected government to make decisions in intervention in wars, to those that people would take action with no democracy, to kill people with zero mandate. It's a totally different thing.
These Isis fighters aren't some form of disgruntled people that are fighting in retaliation of inadvertent actions against muslims, by western forces, but are twisted ill educated religious people jumping on the back of political ideals to pedal their horrible agenda and caliphate state. That's absolutely it.
The issue of North Korea is quite different for this thread.