Another major (presumably terrorist) incident. Now in Manchester.

[Joe]

But there is a lot of violence in the Koran, you have to look hard in the bible.

Really? The Old Testament is full of it; either God smiting various people, or destroying whole cities, or the Jews slaughtering their enemies at God's command:

Make ready to slaughter the infidel’s sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.
Then I heard God say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children."
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.
This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'
Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

[Macca]

True, there is loads more action in the Old Testament. A lot more begatting too.

[Macca]

Jesus is the peace and love character but he is only in the sequel.

The origins of the Bible tend to be a mystery for most Christians. Its historic context is completely different to the Koran. It has multiple authors for a start.

[Joe]

True, there is loads more action in the Old Testament. A lot more begatting too.

I like the baldheaded bloke best. I imagine Benny Hill slapping him on his bald pate, before being devoured by a she-bear.

[montesquieu]

True, there is loads more action in the Old Testament. A lot more begatting too.

Strictly speaking, for a Christian, much of that old testament stuff is literally just history (about half of it is exacty that - histories of rulers, armies, slavery and so on), it's not a guide on how to act.

Jesus said 'turn the other cheek'. At various times his followers might not have heeded that, but nevertheless that is what he said.

Life might be a lot simpler if Mohammed had said something similar rather than give an instruction to spread the faith by conquest (indeed Mohammed spent a fair chunk of his life at the head of an army). Whatever your take on all this theologically, it's a pretty fundamental difference.

[Joe]

Strictly speaking, for a Christian, much of that old testament stuff is literally just history (about half of it is exacty that - histories of rulers, armies, slavery and so on), it's not a guide on how to act.

Jesus said 'turn the other cheek'. At various times his followers might not have heeded that, but nevertheless that is what he said.

Life might be a lot simpler if Mohammed had said something similar rather than give an instruction to spread the faith by conquest (indeed Mohammed spent a fair chunk of his life at the head of an army). Whatever your take on all this theologically, it's a pretty fundamental difference.

Yet the difference in behaviour between nominally Christian and nominally Muslim states has often been hard to distinguish. Once Constantine adopted Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire, the persecuted became the persecutors, and the words of Christ were lost in the mix.

[montesquieu]

Yet the difference in behaviour between nominally Christian and nominally Muslim states has often been hard to distinguish. Once Constantine adopted Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire, the persecuted became the persecutors, and the words of Christ were lost in the mix.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree on some of the excesses of Christain history but nevertheless there is a big difference in the fundamentals - Christianity didn't set out to conquer the world by force of arms, and there are no instructions there from Christ to spread the faith by force or kill the infidel (the instruction used is 'teach'), whereas there is a specific instruction in Islam to convert and subjugate by power of arms, and kill those who refuse to submit. ('Islam' is often translated as 'peace' but it actually means 'submission'.)

This makes it hard for civilised Muslims - of which there are many of course - to properly argue the position against fundamentalist extremists, as the words are there in the text to justify their extremism, indeed a bunch of very senior Egyptian clerics recently declared Isis' precepts as consistent with Islamic theology (in fact it's not hugely different to the Salafist variety of Islam practised and Saudi and spread around the world by oil money).

There is simply nothing in Christianity that equates to this, not in the New Testament at least. (People who quote the Old Testament usually don't understand its limited sway in Christianity - we have St Paul to thank for leaving those excesses behind us).

[Macca]

, and the words of Christ were lost in the mix.

Until the MQA de-blurring process came along! I'm told the vocals are much clearer on the Tidal Masters version.

[farflungstar]

I'm not getting back into this conversation (lol) but Christian missionaries burnt African children alive if they didn't accept Christ - this wasn't so long ago.

That's not to say all Christians acted equally. Only that there are always lunatics on the fringes of any ideology.

Terrorism takes many forms - massacring the entire population of buffalo in the states so the native Indians died of starvation is state terrorism.

Evil doesn't pick sides - it finds opportunities.

[Macca]

I'm not getting back into this conversation (lol) but Christian missionaries burnt African children alive if they didn't accept Christ - this wasn't so long ago.

You've got a reliable reference for that?