Another major (presumably terrorist) incident. Now in Manchester.

[Macca]

I haven't read that blog. I don't support violence of any type. Period. But I want you to think about this...


Take a moment to think about how you feel for your wife, your kids, your home, yourself.

Now imagine this....

You live in a poor area of scrubland in the back of no where.

You are 12 years old, you don't go to school, and you live with your dad, your mum, and your sister in a little house raising goats. You're happy. Life is simple. The sun rises and sets. Laughter is within your home and your heart.

Then one day you see planes crossing the sky. You hear your parents whispering together at night. The ruler of your land has been killed by outsiders. They are afraid but they tell you not to worry.

Then a few weeks later people you recognise as from your own people turn up and you watch as your sister is raped in front of your family and sold into prostitution, as your mum is raped then butchered, and as a bullet is put into the head of your weeping father.

Who do you blame for this - the people who did it or the people who took out the person in charge, the law and control.

Those who murdered your family whisper lies to you, they brainwash you and put a gun in your hand and a bomb round your waist. You don't know what is right or what is wrong or who is to blame for the destruction of your way of life. But now there is no laughter in your heart - only hate and confusion.

This is the reality of the situation. This is why terrorists exist and are created.

Now - think again about your family.

Thought about it and it is still no sale.

'Brainwashing' is no excuse. You really think these people are so confused they don't know what they are doing? If you are not condemning it then you are encouraging it. Please do read the blog Marco inexplicably linked to so that you realise what we are actually dealing with here, maybe it will change your mind.

I should also take issue with your description of England:

I'm very worried for the UK - which is heading down an isolationist, racist, bigoted shit hole of a country populated by people who value only their own family unit and measure themselves by their latest mobile phone purchase or big screen instead of humanity

I appreciate that you don't live in the UK but I do, in one of the poorest neighbourhoods of one of the poorest cities (the 'brexit capital' in fact), and I don't recognise your description at all.

[Joe]

H
As to saville - they waited until he was dead before doing anything - why? Because he would open his mouth and speak.

Why didn't 'they' just kill him and eliminate the risk? These supposedly all-powerful people seem remarkably inept at handling threats.

I'm not sure what's more depressing on this thread; Macca's 'ends justify the means' hand-washing or the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists.

As for Islam as a religion of violence vs Christianity as a religion of peace, this is laughable in the light of such horrors as the Thirty Years War, the English Civil War, the US Civil War, WWI and WW2, in which millions of Christians killed millions of other Christians. The Muslims have some catching-up to do in this respect. Of course, the three biggest mass-murderers (Hitler, Stalin and Mao) were all atheists.

[Arkless Electronics]

Thought about it and it is still no sale.

'Brainwashing' is no excuse. You really think these people are so confused they don't know what they are doing? If you are not condemning it then you are encouraging it. Please do read the blog Marco inexplicably linked to so that you realise what we are actually dealing with here, maybe it will change your mind.

I should also take issue with your description of England:

I'm very worried for the UK - which is heading down an isolationist, racist, bigoted shit hole of a country populated by people who value only their own family unit and measure themselves by their latest mobile phone purchase or big screen instead of humanity

I appreciate that you don't live in the UK but I do, in one of the poorest neighbourhoods of one of the poorest cities (the 'brexit capital' in fact), and I don't recognise your description at all.

I completely agree with Adrians description of England, and brainwashing, in many forms, is exactly the reason for this! My greatest hatred (and I mean hatred) is for the likes of The Daily Mair, which I regard as an illegal publication under the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006. It is one of my most strongly held beliefs that if you read The Daily Mair, and agree with it, you are a complete arsehole.

[Dynamics]

Why didn't 'they' just kill him and eliminate the risk? These supposedly all-powerful people seem remarkably inept at handling threats.

I'm not sure what's more depressing on this thread; Macca's 'ends justify the means' hand-washing or the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists.

As for Islam as a religion of violence vs Christianity as a religion of peace, this is laughable in the light of such horrors as the Thirty Years War, the English Civil War, the US Civil War, WWI and WW2, in which millions of Christians killed millions of other Christians. The Muslims have some catching-up to do in this respect. Of course, the three biggest mass-murderers (Hitler, Stalin and Mao) were all atheists.

Let's bring it down to reality here. 22 people got blown up in Manchester, before that Lee rigby got 'cut up' in the street. Before that we had 7/7 - 52 dead. Also in France, Belgium, Australia, Germany, US, Tunisia, Turkey. These incidents all happened relatively recently and are caused by ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM AND EXTREMISM.

By the way hitler was a Roman Catholic, Stalin was an atheist, and not sure about mao. But the point is they didn't do their killing through the concept of atheism or in its name. The point is some of these muslims do it through their religion and in its name, almost exclusively in these attacks. It has a Muslim origin, and doesn't happen with christians. Some believe they will be infidels by blowing themselves up, many believe in a Muslim caliphate state dictated by sharia law. An example of a crime under sharia law of apostecy (leaving the Muslim religion) is punishable by death. British muslims regularly advocate following this law in countries where it is allowed. They go on TV saying this and when pinned down on it, they agree with following the doctrine of it, if allowed. If you don't think this is a problem and that their religion plays a part in condoning uk terrorism, turning a blind eye to it, it's simply ludicrous. These people who have these views on tv are often leaders of Islamic organisations. How do you suppose that all Muslim's in a mosque will discourage violent thinking when its ingrained in the thinking of an interpretation of it that more senior immans and these Islamic organisation leaders won't discuss and deplore. Let me find you a few clips e.g. Douglas Murray challenging choudhary and other nutters.

Adam Deen, an ex extremist, was going on tv saying that these people believe that they are doing right in their faith by blowing people up. It's highly religious and in done the name of Islam. Clearly there are many more moderate muslims, but the problem is of attitudes to the religion in the Muslim community that can allow these crimes. So if you agree as a Muslim to the doctrines of sharia law, as many British muslims do, you have to accept the worst implications that can have to someone that as a Muslim, wants to bomb a concert. How can they have a conversation as a faith to combat terrorism in such people. In the inability of our services to look over the 3000 potential jihadis on the list (which the bomber was on this list), we have to rely on the Muslim community to route it out and agree to modification of their beliefs as moderates such it doesn't spill into those indoctrinated. Muslim attitudes to things like homophobia don't help in a tolerant society such as ours. The statistics on what Muslim people believe on such matters are far flung from normal British tolerant values.

[Macca]

I'm not sure what's more depressing on this thread; Macca's 'ends justify the means' hand-washing or the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists.

.

Think you might need to re-read my posts Joe, my point appears to have eluded you.

And just because bad things happened in the name of God 500 years ago does not excuse murdering children now.

[Macca]

I completely agree with Adrians description of England, and brainwashing, in many forms, is exactly the reason for this! My greatest hatred (and I mean hatred) is for the likes of The Daily Mair, which I regard as an illegal publication under the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006. It is one of my most strongly held beliefs that if you read The Daily Mair, and agree with it, you are a complete arsehole.

I don't read any newspapers. Like the majority of people in Britain if the current circulation figures are anything to go by. Daily Mail sold 1.4 million copies a day in Dec 2016, so not exactly read in every household.

[Arkless Electronics]

Let's bring it down to reality here. 22 people got blown up in Manchester, before that Lee rigby got 'cut up' in the street. Before that we had 7/7 - 52 dead. Also in France, Belgium, Australia, Germany, US, Tunisia, Turkey. These incidents all happened relatively recently and are caused by ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM AND EXTREMISM.

By the way hitler was a Roman Catholic, Stalin was an atheist, and not sure about mao. But the point is they didn't do their killing through the concept of atheism or in its name. The point is some of these muslims do it through their religion and in its name. Some believe they will be infidels by blowing themselves up, many believe in a Muslim caliphate state dictated by sharia law. An example of a crime under sharia law of apostecy (leaving the Muslim religion) is punishable by death. British muslims regularly advocate following this law in countries where it is allowed. They go on TV saying this and when pinned down on it, they agree with following the doctrine of it, if allowed. If you don't think this is a problem and that their religion plays a part in condoning terrorism, turning a blind eye to it, it's simply ludicrous. These people who have these views on tv are often leaders of Islamic organisations. How do you suppose that all Muslim's in a mosque will discourage violent thinking when its ingrained in the thinking of an interpretation of it that more senior immans and these Islamic organisation leaders won't discuss.

Adam Deen was going on tv saying that these people believe that they are doing right in their faith by blowing people up. It's highly religious and in the name of Islam.

There was no Islamic terrorism against us until we went it gung ho with "shock and awe" etc to secure their oil and killed 100.000's of them... the destabilisation of the whole region and regime changes allowed the rise of religious nutters determined to create a medieval Islamic death cult. There would be no Al Qaeda or ISIS if the West had not gone in poking its nose where it was not wanted. Now these terrorist nutters are here the West is hardly doing its all to get rid of them... If the so called caliphate was in major oil producing areas, to the extent that it affected The Wests profits, you can be sure they would have gone in with everything, guns blazing and thousands of boots on the ground... Oh and of course it would be for "humanitarian reasons", protecting civilians etc.... followed by the shock-troops of Haliburtons accountants!!

Here's a conspiracy theory for you... The West allowed and encouraged the likes of ISIS and all the civil wars and tribal in fighting in order to create perpetual chaos amongst ME countries. Strong, organised and independent nation states have armies, military research facilities, air forces etc. USA wants the region as weak as possible (other than its "friends" like the terrorist supporting Saudi's) so it can't threaten israel, oil supplies or any other western interests. Discuss...

[Dynamics]

Here you are, what does this tell you of the problem. A survey at the end of last year.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/738...-UK-Islam-poll

- 48% of 3000 uk muslims surveyed said they would not report those close to them to the police if they became Linked to Syrian terrorism. This is one in two Muslim people

- 30% of muslims believe in conspiracy theories in respect to 9/11 that it wasn't caused by al quaeda. That's one in three British muslims.

[Dynamics]

There was no Islamic terrorism against us until we went it gung ho with "shock and awe" etc to secure their oil and killed 100.000's of them... the destabilisation of the whole region and regime changes allowed the rise of religious nutters determined to create a medieval Islamic death cult. There would be no Al Qaeda or ISIS if the West had not gone in poking its nose where it was not wanted. Now these terrorist nutters are here the West is hardly doing its all to get rid of them... If the so called caliphate was in major oil producing areas, to the extent that it affected The Wests profits, you can be sure they would have gone in with everything, guns blazing and thousands of boots on the ground... Oh and of course it would be for "humanitarian reasons", protecting civilians etc.... followed by the shock-troops of Haliburtons accountants!!

Here's a conspiracy theory for you... The West allowed and encouraged the likes of ISIS and all the civil wars and tribal in fighting in order to create perpetual chaos amongst ME countries. Strong, organised and independent nation states have armies, military research facilities, air forces etc. USA wants the region as weak as possible (other than its "friends" like the terrorist supporting Saudi's) so it can't threaten israel, oil supplies or any other western interests. Discuss...

But you forget the reasons for going into these countries intilayy were distinct from Isis which has come about after, but you also ignore that Isis groups have killed more civilians than any western forces. As to the rubbish about oil, I don't believe in conspiracy theorists. This was said around the time of going into Iraq, despite the entire political agenda of many countries around a desire to remove leaders such as sadaam hussein. They went in with the aim of removing him. I don't suppose you know if these countries have benefited from oil anyway.

And as to other conspiracy theories about governments being involved in Manchester let me shoot that down too. Unless you haven't realised, these terrorist incidents have happened all across Europe, so is there some form of multi government conspiracy. It gets even more far fetched.

And it is distressing and offensive to write this. What do you suppose the survivors, family members or relatives think, or those that have experienced terrorist incidents (like me on 7/7) think when they read this sort of bad ignorant views, going back to my earlier post around page 7

[farflungstar]

Don't tell me im speaking rubbish when I have family in Libya experiencing the aftermath of the wests interference in what was a stable, prosperous, tolerant society.

The only people safe in that country are the snakes dealing oil from the US and the UK.

Yes ISIS kills Muslims - why? Because its backed by the West.

Anyone who quotes statistics from a newspaper needs education - not me. I've been places u haven't. I've met people you haven't. And you never will.

I don't discourse with those whose knuckles scrape the floor when they walk.

I'm out of this conversation. I hate ignorance and stupidity.