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Thread: Digital audio vs vinyl

  1. #141
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    Concerning the perception of frequencies > 20kHz, I believe that although one cannot hear such frequencies directly, their presence could have an influence on sounds lower in frequency.

    Although not directly related, owing to my age, I cannot directly hear frequencies above 10kHz, yet can 'hear' the difference to a violin playing whereby the top end is rolled off. To experience this effect, JBL produced a record called 'Sessions' as a device to demonstrate and promote their speakers.



    On it there is a track (track 3 on side 2) of a violin playing, first full-range, then with high frequencies above 15kHz filtered out. The filtering then occurs at 12kHz, and finally at 10kHz. As I say, I can't hear above 10kHz, but I can hear quite distinctly when the response is rolled off at 15kHz.
    Last edited by Barry; 23-05-2017 at 18:35. Reason: spelling
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  2. #142
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Light Dependant Resistor View Post
    See Post 124 and this article http://wilson-benesch.com/reviews/Li...C_Sep-1998.pdf
    the work done by David Blackmer into the ability of human hearing to perceive sounds above 20khz

    Yes mixing desks are capable of limiting frequency, and must be improved. On the plus side fets and mosfets
    are capable out to 100's of Mhz if not Ghz

    It open's many possibilities when we think above 20khz for both recording and playback.
    It s just an article though, in which he speculates and does not have any references to anything more concrete. Not saying that there is no possibility in the idea but at the moment the academic studies suggest otherwise.

    People cannot reliably tell whether the super high HF content is present or not. Even if there is a genuine effect is it not so tiny as to not be worth bothering with? When we could be looking at far more effective ways of improving replay quality?
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

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  3. #143
    Join Date: Feb 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Concerning the perception of frequencies > 20kHz, I believe that although one cannot hear such frequencies directly, their presence could have an influence on sounds lower in frequency.

    Although not directly related, owing to my age, I cannot directly hear frequencies above 10kHz, yet can 'hear' the difference to a violin playing whereby the top end is rolled off. To experience this effect, JBL produced a record called 'Sessions' as a device to demonstrate and promote their speakers.



    On it there is a track (track 3 on side 2) of a violin playing, first full-range, then with high frequencies above 15kHz filtered out. The filtering then occurs at 12kHz, and finally at 10kHz. As I say, I can't hear above 10kHz, but I can hear quite distinctly when the response is rolled of at 15kHz.
    yes i would agree some perception is there. I put a super tweeter in at a freq I couldnt hear but could tell the difference. I felt it altered my perception of the lower bass freq.
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  4. #144
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Not saying that there is no possibility in the idea but at the moment the academic studies suggest otherwise.
    And of course they automatically know best

    Marco.
    http://www.thestainedglasscompany.com

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  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    yes i would agree some perception is there. I put a super tweeter in at a freq I couldnt hear but could tell the difference. I felt it altered my perception of the lower bass freq.
    Indeed, and Barry makes a good point, which I suspect has relevance to the whole high-res thing. Some folk like to simplify audio way too much, and compartmentalise it into little boxes of 'black and white facts', when in actuality there is much more going on that can't yet be so 'neatly filed'...

    Marco.
    http://www.thestainedglasscompany.com

    "A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do" -- Milan Kundera.

  6. #146
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    And of course they automatically know best

    Marco.
    Of course!

  7. #147
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    And of course they automatically know best

    Marco.
    Well no, I'm not saying that. But when you hear no difference and then you find out that according to what we know to date you shouldn't be able to hear any difference then it does make you stop and think.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Sony X505ES CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / NVA A30 Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *



    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S Thompson

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    That's not the same thing though is it? Isn't it the case that most amplifiers are not bandwidth-limited is not because we can actually hear anything at that frequency but for other reasons unrelated to audible frequency reaponse?
    I'm not sure what you are getting at here.... Some amps struggle to manage even 20KHz due to their own limitations and may be a dB or so down at this point, others may manage 2MHz + and may be allowed to get on with doing this, others still may manage 2MHz + but the designer may choose to add an artificial roll off.. often -3dB @ 50KHz or so.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    I'm not sure what you are getting at here.... Some amps struggle to manage even 20KHz due to their own limitations and may be a dB or so down at this point, others may manage 2MHz + and may be allowed to get on with doing this, others still may manage 2MHz + but the designer may choose to add an artificial roll off.. often -3dB @ 50KHz or so.
    I jut recall reading somewhere a discussion on whether extended or limited bandwidth (in a power amp) was the best approach for SQ and it was nothing to do with there being any musical content at those frequencies that needed transmitting.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Sony X505ES CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / NVA A30 Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *



    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S Thompson

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Well no, I'm not saying that. But when you hear no difference and then you find out that according to what we know to date you shouldn't be able to hear any difference then it does make you stop and think.
    Indeed... I stop and think, after which I conclude that there are lots of things we can definitely hear, but which as of yet aren't covered by academic studies

    Marco.
    http://www.thestainedglasscompany.com

    "A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do" -- Milan Kundera.

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