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Thread: Digital audio vs vinyl

  1. #91
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Hi Brian,

    Could I just confirm which member owns the system you're referring to and where he lives?

    Marco.
    Hi Marco,

    When I first joined this site one of the first people I met on AOS was a chap called Steve who kindly offered to clean some records for me as he is only 5 minutes round the corner. Steve now has a business selling high end equipment and has become a good friend over the years.

    Not only does he sell very good equipment he also has an extraordinary environment in which to listen, it is unique and very special.

    I don't want to say anything more about him on this post but if you would like to know more just PM or give me a call.

    Jim
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  2. #92
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Fair enough mate, why not ask him to join AoS, contribute to discussions and sell some of his stuff?

    We need to have a sesh anyway, as we've talked about for a while, so when I pop down to your place, we can perhaps 'kill two birds', as it were

    Essentially, I'd like to bring my Sony DAC down and hear it in Steve's system, against the Chord Dave. You can tell him that he may have a potential customer.

    Marco.

    P.S Just noticed you appear to be saying that he's already a member here?
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #93
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

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    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  4. #94
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Deleted

    Posts: 6,585
    I'm Deleted.

    Default Digital audio vs vinyl

    I have a lot of experience with regard to the digital vs vinyl debate and have been known to take quite a firm stance - but let me try to explain how I see things.

    Since the invention of CD I've done masses, perhaps hundreds, of digital versus analogue comparisons - most A/B in systems other than my own but also some in my own system. I've compared budget solutions and state of the art equipment costing many, many thousands. In recent years most of these demos or comparisons have involved playing files (as opposed to a CD) or streaming. Now I'm heavily invested (financially, physically and emotionally) in vinyl and have a record collection dating from my early teens (so over thirty years), but I'm not blind/deaf to what digital can offer, or the faults of vinyl. In fact I would go so far as to say that if CD sounds very hard to you (these days) and vinyl is all warm and welcoming, then something is very wrong - probably with your speaker/amp/room interface but almost certainly with your turntable (pleasant sounding as it may be).

    Back in the day when CD was introduced and Philips promised 'Perfect Sound Forever' it was quite profoundly different to the sound of 'good' analogue. The vinyl was all about drive and dynamic swing but a bit opaque and rolled off at the extremes. The CD was all about leading edge attack and flat response (not the magazine) but low on visceral impact and hard verging on unrelenting in delivery. Speakers with slightly peaky tweeters were common because vinyl didn't stress them and a bit of 'sparkle' was appreciated - CD sent the same tweeters into a breakup mode freak out that endangered the enamel of your teeth.

    Move on to the current day and CD is a whole lot better. In fact, it's not only more polite than before, it's sometimes too polite! The best CD players still cost quite a lot of money though and budget ones, whilst not hard and brittle, are pretty bland affairs. On the other hand streaming and files are a real moveable feast - high res files can sound amazing but at its worst streaming can sound like second rate MP3 (unfortunately common in fact).

    So what about vinyl? Well, the truth is that I'm more experienced with budget digital than budget vinyl and pretty much all my experience in the last 15 years (or so) has been with vinyl rigs costing many, many thousands. Nevertheless, the bottom line is that if you want really good performance vinyl costs - but then it does deliver in a quite different way than more 'reasonably priced' vinyl setups. The best vinyl systems are now tonally pretty much identical to a very good digital solution and the differences boil down to stereo imagery, depth and subtle aspects like lyricism and palpability.

    Sorry, I might write a bit more in a bit, I seem to have written a bit of an essay.
    Account Deleted

  5. #95
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    Nice analysis Mark.

    I think I agree, but it all depends on budget really. I've spent rather more on CD replay than on my very good sounding record playing setup, but I get equally satisfying results from both.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  6. #96
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by YNWaN View Post
    I have a lot of experience with regard to the digital vs vinyl debate and have been known to take quite a firm stance - but let me try to explain how I see things.

    Since the invention of CD I've done masses, perhaps hundreds, of digital versus analogue comparisons - most A/B in systems other than my own but also some in my own system. I've compared budget solutions and state of the art equipment costing many, many thousands. In recent years most of these demos or comparisons have involved playing files (as opposed to a CD) or streaming. Now I'm heavily invested (financially, physically and emotionally) in vinyl and have a record collection dating from my early teens (so over thirty years), but I'm not blind/deaf to what digital can offer, or the faults of vinyl. In fact I would go so far as to say that if CD sounds very hard to you (these days) and vinyl is all warm and welcoming, then something is very wrong - probably with your speaker/amp/room interface but almost certainly with your turntable (pleasant sounding as it may be).

    Back in the day when CD was introduced and Philips promised 'Perfect Sound Forever' it was quite profoundly different to the sound of 'good' analogue. The vinyl was all about drive and dynamic swing but a bit opaque and rolled off at the extremes. The CD was all about leading edge attack and flat response (not the magazine) but low on visceral impact and hard verging on unrelenting in delivery. Speakers with slightly peaky tweeters were common because vinyl didn't stress them and a bit of 'sparkle' was appreciated - CD sent the same tweeters into a breakup mode freak out that endangered the enamel of your teeth.

    Move on to the current day and CD is a whole lot better. In fact, it's not only more polite than before, it's sometimes too polite! The best CD players still cost quite a lot of money though and budget ones, whilst not hard and brittle, are pretty bland affairs. On the other hand streaming and files are a real moveable feast - high res files can sound amazing but at its worst streaming can sound like second rate MP3 (unfortunately common in fact).

    So what about vinyl? Well, the truth is that I'm more experienced with budget digital than budget vinyl and pretty much all my experience in the last 15 years (or so) has been with vinyl rigs costing many, many thousands. Nevertheless, the bottom line is that if you want really good performance vinyl costs - but then it does deliver in a quite different way than more 'reasonably priced' vinyl setups. The best vinyl systems are now tonally pretty much identical to a very good digital solution and the differences boil down to stereo imagery, depth and subtle aspects like lyricism and palpability.
    Superb post, Mark! I concur 110% with what you've written (especially the bit in bold), as it mirrors my own experience. I think we're also coming at it from similar directions

    Marco,
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #97
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

    Default

    I,m following you Mark and agree with all your observations.

    For me it's not really worth using CD as a benchmark for digital as file based systems quite easily better any CD player out there and I have heard some mega bucks stuff. Quite simply although CD has its place the future for really great digital I feel will be from file based systems via the best DACs out there.

    However as digital systems slowly unravel the potential in digital recordings they seem to strangely start to sound more analog which is not a bad thing. Ultimately the sound is still not yet for me as good as a great vinyl system which delivers a presentation and acoustic rendition of a recording that digital cannot quite achieve. It may come down to the fact that delivering music from these two very different technologies will never be the same and there will always be discernible differences as there are between say valves and transistors.

    Digital will I believe always have it own sound as will vinyl. Some folk extol the technical virtues of digital which on paper trounce vinyl but in practice don't quite cut the mustard. Somehow the prehistoric mechanical nature of vinyl delivers analog sound that our ears and soul loves. Digital seems to forever inhabit another universe which does not quite connect with the brain in the same way.

    Now I have heard digital completely blow me away and do things vinyl could only dream of but I always feel slightly disconnected.

    All the debate about the technicalities for me is meaningless and trying to translate those technicalities to win an argument one way or the other is pointless. Ultimately you need to just sit down and listen and that will tell you all you need to know.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  8. #98
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 99,005
    I'm Grant.

    Default

    still quite like cd personally. I am as per usual out of step
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ ......Don't be such a big girl's blouse

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  9. #99
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    I think that the most ardent digital fanboy would get a shock, and a rather rude awakening, listening to truly top-notch vinyl replay (which many of them simply have never heard and have little concept of); indeed I've seen evidence of that at bake-offs, where you can see the look on their faces of 'WTF is happening here, then?'

    These are usually folk who've been brainwashed by the 'facts' presented by technical specifications or measurements, and struggle to grasp why what they've been told by supposed 'experts' simply doesn't tally with what their lugs are clearly hearing!

    Anyway, with regards to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo
    However as digital systems slowly unravel the potential in digital recordings they seem to strangely start to sound more analog which is not a bad thing.
    It's like I've been saying all along, mate. The LEAST any vinyl or digital source imposes its own sonic signature on the music, the MORE you hear of both the music itself, and the true capabilities of the format. Most of what's perceived as wrong with 'digital sound' isn't the CDs or files themselves (given a good recording), but the limitations of the associated playback equipment.

    It's as simple as that

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #100
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I think that the most ardent digital fanboy would get a shock, and a rather rude awakening, listening to truly top-notch vinyl replay (which many of them simply have never head and have little concept of); indeed I have seen evidence of that at bake-offs, where you can see the look on their faces of 'WTF is happening here?'

    These are usually folk who've been brainwashed by the 'facts' presented by technical specifications or measurements and struggle to grasp why what they've been told by supposed 'experts' simply doesn't tally with what their lugs are clearly revealing!

    Anyway, with regards to this:



    It's like I've been saying all along, mate. The LEAST any vinyl or digital source imposes its own sonic signature on the music, the more you hear of both the music itself, and the true capabilities of the format, and most of what's wrong with 'digital sound' isn't the CDs or files, but the limitations of playback equipment.

    It's as simple as that

    Marco.
    I agree with both of your statements there Marco. Regarding your last statement about the limitations of playback equipment this is so true. Pity the really good stuff is so expensive!

    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

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